Problems With The Silencer Evidence: Crime Scene Choreography & Utility

[Bill Robertson]

For what it's worth, Sheila's predictive notes only referred to her killing the boys and herself. In fact, she refers to June as someone needing support from Christine, Sheila's natural mother. So I don't think that she set out to kill her parents but something happened to cause a confrontation between Sheila and June. I believe that she killed the boys first and intended ending her own life. It's possible that Nevill was only aware that Sheila had the rifle, not that she had fired it. I think that the comments about Sheila going berserk or crazy came about because Nevill heard the fight between Sheila and June. Sheila killed June and came downstairs to the kitchen where she confronted Nevill. What exactly happened then, I don't know but I do think that Nevill received all his injuries in the kitchen.

[Rob Garland]

The thing is,if Nevill phoned the police at 3.25, was June and the boys dead by then?
If not,things must have moved fast before the police arrived.And why phone anyone if no one was injured at that point.? If they were dead,why didn't Nevill mention this to the police or JB?
Could they have been killed while Nevill was asleep down stairs? Surely not,wouldn't he have checked out what had happened when he woke up before phoning anyone?
And what about Nevill,was he uninjured when he made the calls to JB and the police?If so,we have to ask again,why was he phoning at all?
Now,Erik gave a scenario where things kick off in the kitchen between Nevill and Sheila, in which Nevill phones JB and Sheila runs up stairs and starts shooting.This is quite plausable,but there would have been no time for Nevill to call the police too before chasing after Sheila.
In all honesty,it is hard to come up with a scenario where Nevill gets a chance to call both JB and the police.
Yet,the CT claim that Nevill made a call to both JB and the police before being beaten and shot to death minutes later before falling against the Aga,then the police move Nevill to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
So when do the CT think Nevill was shot in the face and arm? Before the phone calls or after?
I simply cant work out a scenario that fits very well with Nevill calling the police then being moved by the TFG upon entry.
But I suppose, all that the CT need is proof of a call from Nevill,which they claim they have got.
So who knows,lets see what the CCRC conclude.

If there is proof of a call to the police from Nevil this virtually clears JB Leslie unless the prosecution claims the call was faked? Did the police hide the call out of honorable intentions?

It is difficult to fit the burns into a scenario if they take several hours to form, unless the police did actually move Nevil upon entry to the kitchen but why?

The only other option and to me the most likely is the altercation between Nevil and Sheila played out over a much longer time period, but if Nevil somehow ended up against the Aga for several hours I believe the call to JB has to be before any shots have been fired?

If the Aga is the cause of the burns to me this greatly helps JB, there is no way JB would be messing around for several hours he would just finish Nevil off where he lay.

There is quite a comprehensive discussion about Nevills phone call to the police in the official JB innocence campaign forum Rob.The CT claim that recordings of calls from both JB and Nevill to the police should still exist as copies were made and no record of their destruction has been found.They think the recordings may be held under PII.
The CT make quite a good argument about the two written logs as well Rob and firmly believe that Nevill phoned the police at 3.26 and JB phoned them at 3.36.
So,if we go by this,how do we fit a scenario around these times? What state was everyone in when Nevill called the police at 3.26?
 The thing is,the CT dont give a comprehensive scenario,so we dont know what had happened prior to Nevill calling the police at 3.26,only that he was consequently beaten and shot to death before falling against the Aga and there after moved to the chair/scuttle by the police.

So,what the CT need to make clear is,did all the victims die after Nevill pnoned the police or was June and the boys already dead? If so,why didn't Nevill mention this to JB or the police?
And as you say Rob,what reason did the police have for moving Nevill after entry.
You would think if Sheila didn't start shooting till after Nevill called the police,then he must have been the first to die before June and the boys were awake,otherwise everyone would have been running about the house and the boys could not have possibly died in their sleep.Nevill must have been despatched first before Sheila headed up stairs to attack an unsuspecting June and twins,who must have still been sleeping after Nevill was shot.
Trouble is,we are told Nevill was shot four times before ending up in the kitchen.
So Rob,obviously what we have to ask is,how did it all kick off and what made Nevill decide to call JB and the police,and more importantly,where was Sheila when he was making the calls? Just how can the CT explain this?
Or indeed how can any of us??
Well,if we are to go by the CT scenario, then it must have been obvious to Nevill that Sheila was having a psychotic episode and was very dangerous.But why not phone her doctors for help? Well,obviously Sheila must have been in possesion of the rifle and terrifying Nevill.

Could it have kicked off in Sheilas bedroom? Did Nevill find her there with the rifle? This would at least explain Nevill being shot from above in the arm and shoulder while running down stairs.But what about the face shots before reaching the kitchen? He couldn't make the calls could he? We're more or less back to the police scenario of Nevill being unable to make the calls.

It gets confusing.Maybe we should look at the wording of Nevills calls to JB and the police?
CRAZY and BERSERK! Now,both those words are quite powerful,you dont use them unless someone is completely out of control,especially BERSERK.So what was Sheila doing,or HAD done for Nevill to use those words?
Obviously she was carrying on like a lunatic when Nevill made the calls,but where was she? WHERE ON EARTH was Sheila when Nevill was on the phone?
He couldn't just leave her to run amok and attack June and the boys.
Did Nevill manage to shut Sheila in a room while he was on the phone? How else could he get any peace to make the calls?
Anyway Rob,if it did all kick off at 3.26 when Nevill phoned the police,Sheila didn't have much time to kill eveyone before the police arrived.
Oh well,that will do for now I suppose.

I have often thought that the boys were shot first Leslie in one go, not one shot each then more shots latter. This is also born out by the pattern of the shots. The shots are also in multiples of eight or thereabouts, I believe Sheila would only be able to load around 8 bullets into the magazine as loading the final few bullets gets stiff and hard to insert.

So if the boys are shot first Sheila then reloads which would leave her with around 8 bullets. It's possible the boys were already shot without Nevil knowing when he phones JB? When Nevil calls either the police or JB he has to believe no shots have been fired it's just Sheila going mad waving a gun around?

If JB really planned all this surely he does not use two reloads? Would he not use say three shots on the boys, two or three on Nevil maybe 5 on June leaving Sheila needing to only load one or two bullets to shoot herself which would be easy and no one would have questioned.

Regarding the Aga I don't believe the police would move Nevil absolutely no reason to, if the Aga caused the burns then to me the tragedy kicked off much earlier maybe around 1.00am?

The wounds to Nevil are classic with attacks involving people with PS having a meltdown.

[Leslie Aalders]

For what it's worth, Sheila's predictive notes only referred to her killing the boys and herself. In fact, she refers to June as someone needing support from Christine, Sheila's natural mother. So I don't think that she set out to kill her parents but something happened to cause a confrontation between Sheila and June. I believe that she killed the boys first and intended ending her own life. It's possible that Nevill was only aware that Sheila had the rifle, not that she had fired it. I think that the comments about Sheila going berserk or crazy came about because Nevill heard the fight between Sheila and June. Sheila killed June and came downstairs to the kitchen where she confronted Nevill. What exactly happened then, I don't know but I do think that Nevill received all his injuries in the kitchen.

Thanks Bill,I forgot what was written in the letters,will think about your scenario.
What is your view about the police moving Nevill onto the scuttle?

[Leslie Aalders]

The thing is,if Nevill phoned the police at 3.25, was June and the boys dead by then?
If not,things must have moved fast before the police arrived.And why phone anyone if no one was injured at that point.? If they were dead,why didn't Nevill mention this to the police or JB?
Could they have been killed while Nevill was asleep down stairs? Surely not,wouldn't he have checked out what had happened when he woke up before phoning anyone?
And what about Nevill,was he uninjured when he made the calls to JB and the police?If so,we have to ask again,why was he phoning at all?
Now,Erik gave a scenario where things kick off in the kitchen between Nevill and Sheila, in which Nevill phones JB and Sheila runs up stairs and starts shooting.This is quite plausable,but there would have been no time for Nevill to call the police too before chasing after Sheila.
In all honesty,it is hard to come up with a scenario where Nevill gets a chance to call both JB and the police.
Yet,the CT claim that Nevill made a call to both JB and the police before being beaten and shot to death minutes later before falling against the Aga,then the police move Nevill to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
So when do the CT think Nevill was shot in the face and arm? Before the phone calls or after?
I simply cant work out a scenario that fits very well with Nevill calling the police then being moved by the TFG upon entry.
But I suppose, all that the CT need is proof of a call from Nevill,which they claim they have got.
So who knows,lets see what the CCRC conclude.

If there is proof of a call to the police from Nevil this virtually clears JB Leslie unless the prosecution claims the call was faked? Did the police hide the call out of honorable intentions?

It is difficult to fit the burns into a scenario if they take several hours to form, unless the police did actually move Nevil upon entry to the kitchen but why?

The only other option and to me the most likely is the altercation between Nevil and Sheila played out over a much longer time period, but if Nevil somehow ended up against the Aga for several hours I believe the call to JB has to be before any shots have been fired?

If the Aga is the cause of the burns to me this greatly helps JB, there is no way JB would be messing around for several hours he would just finish Nevil off where he lay.

There is quite a comprehensive discussion about Nevills phone call to the police in the official JB innocence campaign forum Rob.The CT claim that recordings of calls from both JB and Nevill to the police should still exist as copies were made and no record of their destruction has been found.They think the recordings may be held under PII.
The CT make quite a good argument about the two written logs as well Rob and firmly believe that Nevill phoned the police at 3.26 and JB phoned them at 3.36.
So,if we go by this,how do we fit a scenario around these times? What state was everyone in when Nevill called the police at 3.26?
 The thing is,the CT dont give a comprehensive scenario,so we dont know what had happened prior to Nevill calling the police at 3.26,only that he was consequently beaten and shot to death before falling against the Aga and there after moved to the chair/scuttle by the police.

So,what the CT need to make clear is,did all the victims die after Nevill pnoned the police or was June and the boys already dead? If so,why didn't Nevill mention this to JB or the police?
And as you say Rob,what reason did the police have for moving Nevill after entry.
You would think if Sheila didn't start shooting till after Nevill called the police,then he must have been the first to die before June and the boys were awake,otherwise everyone would have been running about the house and the boys could not have possibly died in their sleep.Nevill must have been despatched first before Sheila headed up stairs to attack an unsuspecting June and twins,who must have still been sleeping after Nevill was shot.
Trouble is,we are told Nevill was shot four times before ending up in the kitchen.
So Rob,obviously what we have to ask is,how did it all kick off and what made Nevill decide to call JB and the police,and more importantly,where was Sheila when he was making the calls? Just how can the CT explain this?
Or indeed how can any of us??
Well,if we are to go by the CT scenario, then it must have been obvious to Nevill that Sheila was having a psychotic episode and was very dangerous.But why not phone her doctors for help? Well,obviously Sheila must have been in possesion of the rifle and terrifying Nevill.

Could it have kicked off in Sheilas bedroom? Did Nevill find her there with the rifle? This would at least explain Nevill being shot from above in the arm and shoulder while running down stairs.But what about the face shots before reaching the kitchen? He couldn't make the calls could he? We're more or less back to the police scenario of Nevill being unable to make the calls.

It gets confusing.Maybe we should look at the wording of Nevills calls to JB and the police?
CRAZY and BERSERK! Now,both those words are quite powerful,you dont use them unless someone is completely out of control,especially BERSERK.So what was Sheila doing,or HAD done for Nevill to use those words?
Obviously she was carrying on like a lunatic when Nevill made the calls,but where was she? WHERE ON EARTH was Sheila when Nevill was on the phone?
He couldn't just leave her to run amok and attack June and the boys.
Did Nevill manage to shut Sheila in a room while he was on the phone? How else could he get any peace to make the calls?
Anyway Rob,if it did all kick off at 3.26 when Nevill phoned the police,Sheila didn't have much time to kill eveyone before the police arrived.
Oh well,that will do for now I suppose.

I have often thought that the boys were shot first Leslie in one go, not one shot each then more shots latter. This is also born out by the pattern of the shots. The shots are also in multiples of eight or thereabouts, I believe Sheila would only be able to load around 8 bullets into the magazine as loading the final few bullets gets stiff and hard to insert.

So if the boys are shot first Sheila then reloads which would leave her with around 8 bullets. It's possible the boys were already shot without Nevil knowing when he phones JB? When Nevil calls either the police or JB he has to believe no shots have been fired it's just Sheila going mad waving a gun around?

If JB really planned all this surely he does not use two reloads? Would he not use say three shots on the boys, two or three on Nevil maybe 5 on June leaving Sheila needing to only load one or two bullets to shoot herself which would be easy and no one would have questioned.

Regarding the Aga I don't believe the police would move Nevil absolutely no reason to, if the Aga caused the burns then to me the tragedy kicked off much earlier maybe around 1.00am?

The wounds to Nevil are classic with attacks involving people with PS having a meltdown.

Thanks Rob.
Bill also thinks the boys were shot first,not sure if he thinks the police moved Nevill or not.
Will think about what you have both said.

[Bill Robertson]

Bill also thinks the boys were shot first, not sure if he thinks the police moved Nevill or not.
Will think about what you have both said.

I think that moving Nevill onto the coal scuttle would be at least a 2 man job and whoever does it gets covered in blood (which is why it's very unlikely that the police did it). A dead body is bloody hard to lift and I can't imagine how either JB or Sheila could have done it. But, there was no reason for the police to move the body except the remote possibility of larking around after the scene had been viewed by Taff Jones. (I reject this possibility).
I spent years trying to figure out the positioning of Nevill's body without coming to any conclusion. It is the volume of blood running down from his head and over the floor that complicates things. For that amount of blood to flow down and across the floor suggests that however improbable, he was in that position for quite some time, ruling out the possibility of police, or anyone else, having placed him there, in my view.

The other factor is the four shots into the skull. Nevill's head has to be quite low down for these shots to be possible. Even if he is sat on a chair his head is probably too high. So my opinion is that the four shots probably occurred after his head settled on top of the coal scuttle. He was probably unconscious by this time.

Another factor is that it would have been career suicide to tamper with the crime scene until after Taff had ruled four murders and a suicide and I believe that he didn't do that until after 09:30. So there was virtually no time for any manipulation of the crime scene by the cops before Bird started his photography.  As unlikely as it may seem, I think that the body ended up where it is photographed all of its own accord.

[Leslie Aalders]

Bill also thinks the boys were shot first, not sure if he thinks the police moved Nevill or not.
Will think about what you have both said.

I think that moving Nevill onto the coal scuttle would be at least a 2 man job and whoever does it gets covered in blood (which is why it's very unlikely that the police did it). A dead body is bloody hard to lift and I can't imagine how either JB or Sheila could have done it. But, there was no reason for the police to move the body except the remote possibility of larking around after the scene had been viewed by Taff Jones. (I reject this possibility).
I spent years trying to figure out the positioning of Nevill's body without coming to any conclusion. It is the volume of blood running down from his head and over the floor that complicates things. For that amount of blood to flow down and across the floor suggests that however improbable, he was in that position for quite some time, ruling out the possibility of police, or anyone else, having placed him there, in my view.

The other factor is the four shots into the skull. Nevill's head has to be quite low down for these shots to be possible. Even if he is sat on a chair his head is probably too high. So my opinion is that the four shots probably occurred after his head settled on top of the coal scuttle. He was probably unconscious by this time.

Another factor is that it would have been career suicide to tamper with the crime scene until after Taff had ruled four murders and a suicide and I believe that he didn't do that until after 09:30. So there was virtually no time for any manipulation of the crime scene by the cops before Bird started his photography.  As unlikely as it may seem, I think that the body ended up where it is photographed all of its own accord.

Thanks Bill.Just one more thing,do you agree with Boyces Aga burn evidence?

[Leslie Aalders]

Well,it seems that Rob,Bill and myself have all concluded that Nevill ended up on the chair/scuttle by his own steam and no one lifted him into this position.
Bill pointed out that Nevill is in the perfect position to receive the final four head shots and the blood can only be seen around the scuttle.Also,if you look at the crime scene photos,all the blood from Nevills head is also running into the scuttle.There is no blood running down Nevills back or anywhere else,his pyjama jacket looks completely blood free.Surely if Nevill was shot and died somewhere else in a different position the blood trails on his body and clothing would be completely different.

Yes,as Bill says,no matter how precarious Nevill looks,it seems that he did indeed end up on the chair/scuttle of his own accord before being shot in the head.

I suppose there is always the possibility that something else was propping up Nevill,something that the TFG moved upon entry,eg,a chair or the table.Just a thought.

Anyway,let us look at the Aga burn evidence of Philip Boyce.He claims that parts of the Aga made the burns to Nevills back and that they took quite some time to form,possibly hours.So just when was Nevill lying against the Aga on the night of the murders for this to happen?
Well,by deciding that no one moved Nevill after entry,by default as it were,the burns must have obviously
 occurred before Nevill ended up on the scuttle.

Now,there is one absolute fact regarding the case,that is,Jeremy Bamber phoned the police sometime between 3.25 and 3.35.So if JB is guilty,Nevill had received the burns and ended up on the scuttle by this time.
Now,we have spoken about Nevill having to be rendered unconcious in order to lye against the Aga and burn his back,and this indeed gets ridiculed.Now,I can understand this to a fair degree, because it isn't common for a person to be knocked out for very long.But the thing is,if Boyce is right, then Nevill was lying against the Aga for quite a while and therefore must have been unconcious, or dead as Boyce and the CT believe.
But,seeing as we have decided that the burns must have happened before Nevill was dead then someone must have knocked him out,he couldn't have possibly laid there in a concious state,could he!

So,either JB or Sheila must have indeed knocked out Nevill,by process of elimination there is no other option,is there? So no matter how unlikely it seems,the killer did indeed render Nevill unconcious and leave him lying for a considerable amount of time with his back against the Aga.

So,let us recap.We have decided that Nevill burned his back on the Aga[if you believe Boyce] before getting up and sometime later ending up on the chair/scuttle and shot to death.There is no other option if we accept Boyce's evidence and that no one lifted Nevill onto the scuttle.
Now we haven't been told yet just how long it took for the Aga to cause the burns,but would JB really leave Nevill lying there unconcious without shooting him? Just doesn't seem likely does it? Very risky if JB is up stairs shooting the others and Nevill gets to the phone or runs for help.Just wouldn't happen.
The case wouldn't have made it to court if the Aga burns had been known at the time surely? No jury would believe that Bamber would have left Nevill lying alive by the Aga for several minutes or maybe even hours,no way.
Now Sheila however? Well,Bill reminded us that Sheila had no intention of killing June or Nevill and it must have been through their intervention that they ended up victims.This may indeed be why Nevill was knocked out in the first place rather than being shot,yet when he came to and tried to phone for help this then incurred the full wrath of Sheila's disturbed mind.

Now I dont know anything about the CCRC,but if they do accept Boyce's evidence I really cant see how they can fit a believable JB scenario around the burns.
 

[Bill Robertson]

Thanks Bill. Just one more thing, do you agree with Boyces Aga burn evidence?

To be honest, I've never given it much thought, it hasn't interested me as I can't see the CCRC or COA giving it any credence. It's one of those issues that can be dismissed easily by the prosecution. Unfortunately, Boyce doesn't have any credibility as far as the CCRC is concerned, didn't he previously state just as firmly that the burns were caused by a heated up silencer? The source of the marks will never be explained, in the same way that the cuts in the pajama jacket can't be explained either. As far as I know the cuts don't line up with the marks on his back, so what is that about? Fact is, Sheila was mentally unstable and was capable of doing barmy things. But even if she did cause the cuts in the pajamas and the marks on his back, the court would say, so what? As in, anyone could have done both those things prior to the massacre and it makes no difference. The court can easily dismiss such issues and I'm sure that they will.

I have spent my time researching issues capable of influencing the CCRC and the marks on the back don't strike me as worthy of spending a huge amount of time on. Boyce is easily dismissed as an expert as his work is inconsistent in its conclusions. I'm afraid that Boyce's theories are not going to make any impact. Just my opinion!

[Leslie Aalders]

Thanks Bill. Just one more thing, do you agree with Boyces Aga burn evidence?

To be honest, I've never given it much thought, it hasn't interested me as I can't see the CCRC or COA giving it any credence. It's one of those issues that can be dismissed easily by the prosecution. Unfortunately, Boyce doesn't have any credibility as far as the CCRC is concerned, didn't he previously state just as firmly that the burns were caused by a heated up silencer? The source of the marks will never be explained, in the same way that the cuts in the pajama jacket can't be explained either. As far as I know the cuts don't line up with the marks on his back, so what is that about? Fact is, Sheila was mentally unstable and was capable of doing barmy things. But even if she did cause the cuts in the pajamas and the marks on his back, the court would say, so what? As in, anyone could have done both those things prior to the massacre and it makes no difference. The court can easily dismiss such issues and I'm sure that they will.

I have spent my time researching issues capable of influencing the CCRC and the marks on the back don't strike me as worthy of spending a huge amount of time on. Boyce is easily dismissed as an expert as his work is inconsistent in its conclusions. I'm afraid that Boyce's theories are not going to make any impact. Just my opinion!

Thanks very much Bill,will digest what you have said.

[Leslie Aalders]

Boyce claimed the marks to Nevills back could have been made by the end of the rifle barrel Bill,but not with the silencer attached.But in the same programme Mark Williams Thomas made it clear that they were not sure if the rifle made the marks at all.

In the case of the Aga causing the Burns,this was an accidental occurrance as it were.The killer did not inflict the wounds for a reason,but indirectly caused them by injuring Nevill who then fell against the cooker by himself.If the Aga did indeed make the burns it is very unlikely that the killer was even aware of them.

So I dont think its really a case of proving who inflicted the burns to Nevills back Bill,as they were not caused by a direct act by anyone,and if it can be proven that the Aga did cause them and that they took several minutes to form then this has to point to Sheila as the killer surely.
Only if you believe that the police moved Nevill upon entry,then it could point to a guilty JB.It means that JB could have killed Nevill and left him lying against the Aga when he left the farm house,therefore giving the marks time to form before the TFG entered five hours later.

But as you believe that the police did not move Nevill,then the marks had to be made BEFORE Bamber exited the house.If guilty of course.And this is hard to fit into a guilty JB scenario as far as I can see.

So I cant help it Bill,for me the Aga burns do seem to point to an innocent Bamber, if proven, and therefore do seem to be important.




I have to agree with Yvonne Hartley that the sources of heat available at the WHF was limited,and if we rule out anyone actually branding Nevill with a heated item then the Aga was probably the only device in the kitchen capable of causing any burns by lying against it.

[Bill Robertson]

Boyce claimed the marks to Nevills back could have been made by the end of the rifle barrel Bill,but not with the silencer attached.But in the same programme Mark Williams Thomas made it clear that they were not sure if the rifle made the marks at all.

In the case of the Aga causing the Burns,this was an accidental occurrance as it were.The killer did not inflict the wounds for a reason,but indirectly caused them by injuring Nevill who then fell against the cooker by himself.If the Aga did indeed make the burns it is very unlikely that the killer was even aware of them.

So I dont think its really a case of proving who inflicted the burns to Nevills back Bill,as they were not caused by a direct act by anyone,and if it can be proven that the Aga did cause them and that they took several minutes to form then this has to point to Sheila as the killer surely.
Only if you believe that the police moved Nevill upon entry,then it could point to a guilty JB.It means that JB could have killed Nevill and left him lying against the Aga when he left the farm house,therefore giving the marks time to form before the TFG entered five hours later.

But as you believe that the police did not move Nevill,then the marks had to be made BEFORE Bamber exited the house.If guilty of course.And this is hard to fit into a guilty JB scenario as far as I can see.

So I cant help it Bill,for me the Aga burns do seem to point to an innocent Bamber, if proven, and therefore do seem to be important.




I have to agree with Yvonne Hartley that the sources of heat available at the WHF was limited,and if we rule out anyone actually branding Nevill with a heated item then the Aga was probably the only device in the kitchen capable of causing any burns by lying against it.

The problem is that there is no agreement that the marks are burns. Didn't JB's own defense pathologist say this? If there is no 100% agreement that the marks are burns it's hard to see the CCRC accepting it 40 years later. The CCRC is particularly keen to use statements from the defence experts to shoot down JB. As for Boyce, in the British legal system you don't get two bites at the cherry. If Boyce said previously the marks were caused by a heated rifle barrel he doesn't get to come back years later and say he has changed his mind. The CoA would laugh at him. The CCRC has no scientific expertise, they are mainly just lawyers looking at evidence from a legal perspective and they are very averse to taking risks. The are not going to put their necks on the chopping block and rule that the marks are burns when others have said that they are not sure.

Unfortunately Yvonne Hartley has wasted everyone's time with this issue and delayed a CCRC decision. Her obsession with demonstrating every flaw in the prosecution case and outlining every aspect of incorrect evidence does JB no favours when it comes to getting him freed, it just makes it more difficult and ties up a great deal of CCRC time. This is the problem when so much of the police evidence is incorrect. You can take the Yvonne Hartley approach and write it all down and dump a massive submission on the CCRC and accept that they will take years to wade through it. Or, you pick just one or two important issues and get the CCRC to look at those. Unfortunately, she is obsessed with highlighting every item of evidence that is in any way incorrect and the 'burns' issues falls into this category. Even if they are burns from the Aga, it won't make any difference to the CCRC. They won't get drawn into the kind of speculation that you have outlined and certainly won't see it as grounds for an appeal.

As for the alleged burns, there are too many 'ifs' and 'maybe's'. Are they burns? How were they caused? How long did they take to form? MInutes? Hours? How was Nevill still for the whole time? Too many questions that can't be resolved and therefore too risky for the CCRC to put before the CoA. As you say yourself, "if it can be proven that the Aga did cause them and that they took several minutes to form then this has to point to Sheila as the killer surely". But it can't be proven in the particular case of Nevill. Even if you took a cadaver and placed it up against a heated Aga it would not provide proof because you can never know the circumstances of the particular Aga in the kitchen at WHF. What temperature was the Aga in WHF on the night of 7 August? Nobody knows and nobody could ever know now.

It may be frustrating that the alleged burns evidence seems to point to JB's innocence but in my view it is never going to prove it to the satisfaction of the CoA. All that Yvonne has achieved is to cause some doubts in the minds of some people about what was not even a crucial point at the trial. Drake did not tell the Jury that they could convict JB on the 'burns' evidence and therefore the CCRC/CoA will regard it as a minor issue, not something that swayed the Jury.

[Leslie Aalders]

Boyce claimed the marks to Nevills back could have been made by the end of the rifle barrel Bill,but not with the silencer attached.But in the same programme Mark Williams Thomas made it clear that they were not sure if the rifle made the marks at all.

In the case of the Aga causing the Burns,this was an accidental occurrance as it were.The killer did not inflict the wounds for a reason,but indirectly caused them by injuring Nevill who then fell against the cooker by himself.If the Aga did indeed make the burns it is very unlikely that the killer was even aware of them.

So I dont think its really a case of proving who inflicted the burns to Nevills back Bill,as they were not caused by a direct act by anyone,and if it can be proven that the Aga did cause them and that they took several minutes to form then this has to point to Sheila as the killer surely.
Only if you believe that the police moved Nevill upon entry,then it could point to a guilty JB.It means that JB could have killed Nevill and left him lying against the Aga when he left the farm house,therefore giving the marks time to form before the TFG entered five hours later.

But as you believe that the police did not move Nevill,then the marks had to be made BEFORE Bamber exited the house.If guilty of course.And this is hard to fit into a guilty JB scenario as far as I can see.

So I cant help it Bill,for me the Aga burns do seem to point to an innocent Bamber, if proven, and therefore do seem to be important.




I have to agree with Yvonne Hartley that the sources of heat available at the WHF was limited,and if we rule out anyone actually branding Nevill with a heated item then the Aga was probably the only device in the kitchen capable of causing any burns by lying against it.

The problem is that there is no agreement that the marks are burns. Didn't JB's own defense pathologist say this? If there is no 100% agreement that the marks are burns it's hard to see the CCRC accepting it 40 years later. The CCRC is particularly keen to use statements from the defence experts to shoot down JB. As for Boyce, in the British legal system you don't get two bites at the cherry. If Boyce said previously the marks were caused by a heated rifle barrel he doesn't get to come back years later and say he has changed his mind. The CoA would laugh at him. The CCRC has no scientific expertise, they are mainly just lawyers looking at evidence from a legal perspective and they are very averse to taking risks. The are not going to put their necks on the chopping block and rule that the marks are burns when others have said that they are not sure.

Unfortunately Yvonne Hartley has wasted everyone's time with this issue and delayed a CCRC decision. Her obsession with demonstrating every flaw in the prosecution case and outlining every aspect of incorrect evidence does JB no favours when it comes to getting him freed, it just makes it more difficult and ties up a great deal of CCRC time. This is the problem when so much of the police evidence is incorrect. You can take the Yvonne Hartley approach and write it all down and dump a massive submission on the CCRC and accept that they will take years to wade through it. Or, you pick just one or two important issues and get the CCRC to look at those. Unfortunately, she is obsessed with highlighting every item of evidence that is in any way incorrect and the 'burns' issues falls into this category. Even if they are burns from the Aga, it won't make any difference to the CCRC. They won't get drawn into the kind of speculation that you have outlined and certainly won't see it as grounds for an appeal.

As for the alleged burns, there are too many 'ifs' and 'maybe's'. Are they burns? How were they caused? How long did they take to form? MInutes? Hours? How was Nevill still for the whole time? Too many questions that can't be resolved and therefore too risky for the CCRC to put before the CoA. As you say yourself, "if it can be proven that the Aga did cause them and that they took several minutes to form then this has to point to Sheila as the killer surely". But it can't be proven in the particular case of Nevill. Even if you took a cadaver and placed it up against a heated Aga it would not provide proof because you can never know the circumstances of the particular Aga in the kitchen at WHF. What temperature was the Aga in WHF on the night of 7 August? Nobody knows and nobody could ever know now.

It may be frustrating that the alleged burns evidence seems to point to JB's innocence but in my view it is never going to prove it to the satisfaction of the CoA. All that Yvonne has achieved is to cause some doubts in the minds of some people about what was not even a crucial point at the trial. Drake did not tell the Jury that they could convict JB on the 'burns' evidence and therefore the CCRC/CoA will regard it as a minor issue, not something that swayed the Jury.

Thanks very much for the detailed reply Bill,you have made the burns issue very clear.
Lets just hope some of the other points sent to the CCRC will have an impact.

[Bill Robertson]

Well I think the marks are probably caused by the Aga, but proving it is nigh on impossible and I'm not sure what difference it makes. It is Jeremy who insisted on every individual aspect of the  evidence being examined and reported to the CCRC so I guess that he is relaxed about spending years locked up unnecessarily. I think that he could have been out 5 years ago if they had just concentrated on a couple of issues.

[Leslie Aalders]

Well I think the marks are probably caused by the Aga, but proving it is nigh on impossible and I'm not sure what difference it makes. It is Jeremy who insisted on every individual aspect of the  evidence being examined and reported to the CCRC so I guess that he is relaxed about spending years locked up unnecessarily. I think that he could have been out 5 years ago if they had just concentrated on a couple of issues.

Have you ever seen any documentation regarding the evidence of gun shots heard by Steven Brian Smith Bill? One source says he heard shots from the direction of WHF just before midnight.This could tie in with June being shot while Nevill was lying against the Aga.Would you hear shots outside at a distance from the open bedroom window?
I would like to know exactly what Stephen Smith told the police.

[Bill Robertson]

I will search my records and see if his statement is there. My recollection is that he heard a single gunshot from a shotgun but I need to check. He could not possibly have heard the rifle, which is the only weapon that inflicted wounds on the victims. I have to say that I regard his evidence as irrelevant. I hear gunshots every day, living in the country it is commonplace. It could even have been a bird scarer rather than a gunshot.

I had a look at my files but can't find anything related to Smith's report. I would be wary of anything reported in books as authors have been known to make things up, especially CAL.
You have reminded me that some of the first newspaper stories had June going crazy with a shotgun. Maybe Smith came forward after reading that. There were confused reports in the immediate aftermath of the incident.