Problems With The Silencer Evidence: Crime Scene Choreography & Utility

[Leslie Aalders]

Of course,there is the possibility that Sheila DID attach the silencer before the shooting,also hoping for a silent massacre,before returning it mid way through the shooting to the gun cupboard.This may not be as far fetched as we think now that the Aga burns have been introduced.
I will try and come up with a reasonably plausible scenario to suit this.

[Rob Garland]

Of course,there is the possibility that Sheila DID attach the silencer before the shooting,also hoping for a silent massacre,before returning it mid way through the shooting to the gun cupboard.This may not be as far fetched as we think now that the Aga burns have been introduced.
I will try and come up with a reasonably plausible scenario to suit this.

The silencer from a human ears point of view makes little difference when using low velocity ammunition Leslie.

[Leslie Aalders]

OK,we will look at a possible scenario that has Sheila using the silencer and then returning it to the gun cupboard.Bear in mind that we will be assuming that Philip Boyce is correct about the Aga burning Nevills back.So if you agree with Boyce,please read on.

Right,here we go.
Nevill has put the rifle and magazine back in the gun cupboard after JB left for home.Sheila goes down stairs and gets the rifle,silencer, and magazine after everyone is in bed,she also takes five bullets from the gun cupboard thinking one bullet will be enough for each victim including herself.She goes through to the kitchen to load the magazine but realizes it is already fully loaded,she notices the box of ammo on the worktop that JB left so puts the five bullets she has taken from the den down beside them.Hence five extra bullets.
Nevill has heard Sheila and goes down to the kitchen to investigate,whatever is said,Sheila eventually hits Nevill over the head with the rifle and sends him to the floor in front of the Aga,he tries to get up but Sheila hits him again,breaking the lamp shade.Sheila is round by the cooker by this time and raises the rifle once more,the end of the silencer hits the underside of the mantel shelf which deflects the rifle causing the stock to hit the top of the cooker,the stock is split and a piece splinters off with the force.

Nevill lies motionless with his back against the Aga so Sheila stops the beating and heads off up stairs.
Now you may be thinking,why didn't Sheila just shoot Nevill? Well who knows,we know she was close to her dad and may have just hesitated and bashed him instead,or the safety catch may have been on at that time.
No matter what,we know that Nevill must have been alive while he lay against the Aga because he got up again and was shot on the chair/scuttle,So he couldn't have been shot at that time as he only received the four FATAL head shots in the kitchen,no others.

So,Sheila proceeds up stairs and shoots June in her bed,but finds out that shots to the body dont kill her,in fact June manages to get out of bed and attack Sheila.They struggle for the rifle as they go round about the bed and back,both receiving cuts and bruises,possibly sheila had a nose bleed.Some of Sheilas blood may have got into the silencer at this time.Anyway,Sheila manages to push an exhausted badly wounded June to the floor and realizes that the only way to kill her is with a shot to the head.
Sheila re-loads and the twins are dispatched next only receiving head shots,Sheila has learned her lesson,only head shots will do.Besides,she doesn't want the boys to suffer or maybe run away if they are only wounded.

Sheila re-loads the rifle a second time in the kitchen,and it may have been at this time that she unscrewed the silencer and put it back in the gun cupboard.Why you may ask? Well everyone was incapacitated by that stage and besides it made little difference to the sound of the shots anyway,as she would have found out.And of course Sheila would have realized by then that the only way to kill herself with the rifle was through the mouth or under the chin and no doubt worked out it would be easier to achieve this without the silencer attached.There is no reason to assume that Sheila was sat down in the bedroom about to shoot herself before she realized the gun was too long with the silencer on it,no reason at all.

So,for whatever reason Sheila removes the silencer and puts it back in the gun cupboard,by this time she has the cut between her thumb and forefinger ,the cut made by the rifle mechanism that Bill Robertson pointed out.If Sheila unscrewed the silencer from the top,this could also have been when her blood got into the silencer and smudged the outside of it,the cut would be directly in line with the end of the silencer as she unscrewed it like a bottle top.As for fingerprints,Sheila may have noticed the blood and gave the silencer a wipe as she put it back in its box.

At this stage,Sheila has a clear path from the kitchen to the den too,no chairs or bodies in the way till later.
Whatever else Sheila does while Nevill is unconcious is anyones guess,maybe she wrote the alleged suicide note which she placed in the Bible,washed her blood stained clothes and put on a clean nightie,and gave herself a wash and tidy up.

Anyway,Nevill slowly comes to,but is seriously hurt and can barely get to his feet.He stumbles over to the phone and sits down on a chair where it gradually comes back to him what happened,he makes a quick call to JB to summon help, cutting it short as he is eager to get up stairs and see what has taken place.
Nevill pushes himself to his feet and staggers along the hall towards the stair,he shouts out,hoping for a response and alerts Sheila who grabs the rifle and meets him as he turns the corner of the stair case.Two shots are fired into Nevills face as he comes into view around the corner of the stairway and he is forced to retreat,he stumbles and sways from side to side as he makes his way back to the kitchen.
Sheila manages to hit him two more times before he staggers into the kitchen and slumps into a chair all but dead.

Sheila enters the kitchen and aims the rifle at Nevills head but he manages to hold up his right arm to shield it.Sheila hits Nevill with the flat of the rifle barrel and pokes his arm,Nevill grabs the end of the rifle but Sheila pulls it away slashing his hand with the foreward sight and pulling off his wrist watch.
Nevill succumbs to his wounds and topples off the chair landing on the back of it with his head in the coal scuttle.Sheila is now free to put four more shots into Nevills head who may already have been dead,so very little blood spray may have occurred.

Sheila goes up stairs and gets hold of the Bible before shooting herself.

A few points.
People often say that Sheila had no time to wash and change then write a suicide note etc.,after Nevill was shot,but with this scenario all those things were done BEFORE Nevill was shot.All Sheila needed to do after Nevill was dead was go up stairs and shoot herself.So everything can be fitted in quite nicely IF you believe the Aga made the marks to Nevills back.

If Nevill wasn't still alive when he was lying against the Aga,how did he end uo on the chair scuttle?
Would the police have moved him? Why??
Sheila had all the time in the world to replace the silencer to the gun cupboard while Nevill was unconcious,and a clear path to do so.

If you accept this scenario,then no cover up or framing took place and no one deliberately contaminated the silencer.The police simply got things wrong believing that the only way Sheilas blood could have got into the silencer was from her shots to the head,but with the introduction of the Aga burns I believe Sheila may have had the opportunity to get her blood in the silencer and replace it after June and the twins were shot and Nevill lay unconcious.

One thing is for sure,Jeremy Bamber would not have left Nevill lying against the Aga while alive for any length of time.
Well thats about it,bye for now!

[Leslie Aalders]

Of course,there is the possibility that Sheila DID attach the silencer before the shooting,also hoping for a silent massacre,before returning it mid way through the shooting to the gun cupboard.This may not be as far fetched as we think now that the Aga burns have been introduced.
I will try and come up with a reasonably plausible scenario to suit this.

The silencer from a human ears point of view makes little difference when using low velocity ammunition Leslie.

Yes,so I believe Rob.In fact I have just mentioned that fact in the scenario I have posted tonight.

[Leslie Aalders]

Yes,I suppose the prosecution had to claim that Sheila had no other wounds appart from the two gunshot injuries to the neck so that they could claim that was the only source of her blood that night.

Now Bill thinks that Vanezis may have kept additional wounds to Sheila quiet,otherwise it would prove that she fought with the other victims,and no doubt this may be correct,but the same is true regarding Sheila returning the silencer to the gun cupboard.
What the police are claiming is that the ONLY time that Sheila bled on the night of the murders was from the two gun shot wounds to the neck/chin.Obviously if the prosecution conceded that Sheila had ANY other wounds which could have bled beforehand,then the defence could have claimed that some of that blood could have got into the silencer when Sheila was in a good enough condition to return it to the cupboard before shooting herself.

So,from a prosecution point of view the suggestion of any other cuts to Sheila on the night of the murders had to become taboo for a number of reasons.
Then with the backspatter phenomena claim introduced, it seemed the only  scenario  possible was that  Sheila was shot by Bamber who then put the silencer back in the cupboard unaware that Sheilas blood had been blown back into it..And that is what the public believe,that the case against Bamber is cast iron,Sheila simply couldn't shoot herself to death then replace the silencer in the gun cupboard,IMPOSSIBLE!

However,with the introduction of the Aga burns, it turns out that the shooting may have taken several hours to unfold,and that Sheila may have received cuts from the rifle mechanism or Junes finger nails amongst other possibilities,and that she had plenty of time to replace the silencer once everyone was dead or wounded.
So IS the case against Bamber cast iron,even if it WAS Sheilas blood in the silencer?

[Leslie Aalders]

I suppose,like everyone else,the police simply didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle back in 1985,eg.,the Aga burns to Nevills back.

Therefore,the official police scenarioo sent to the Director of public prosecutions back then falls flat.

That is,of course,IF the CCRC accept Boyce's Aga evidence.You see,the prosecution case has Nevill being shot in the main bedroom before running down to the kitchen where he is then beaten before ending up on the chair/scuttle to receive his final four head shots.There is no way of fitting in Nevill lying with his back against the Aga for several minutes or maybe for an hour or more.

And when you think it through,just what else could have made the burns to Nevills back,and just as importantly,why?

Until Boyce suggested the Aga,the burns to Nevills back were never thought of as accidental,that possibility was never discussed by the police,they needed to claim they were caused because of a more sinister reason,eg,prodding with the rifle,heating the rifle to check for signs of life or heating the rifle or some other instrument to inflict torture,none of which make any sense whatsoever from a guilty Bamber.Just how would JB think that by burning Nevills back three times in any way would point to Sheila as the killer? And if Nevill was in any sort of state to be tortured then he was also in a state where he could fight back surely?

Checking for signs of life? Not with four bullets in Nevills brain surely.
No,you dont have to think about the burn marks to Nevill for long to work out that they most likely occurred accidentally.There are only two choices,accidental or intentionally by the killer,and for me there is no contest.
The size and spacings of the marks on Nevills back are also very similar,if not identical to those in Boyce's pig skin experiments,and the handles on the Aga are obviously at just the right height for Nevills spine to land against while lying on his side.

Time wise,the Aga burns are important too,or should I say the time that Nevill needed to lye against the Aga for,for the burns to form.Obviously the Aga handles weren't red hot and branded Nevill right away,yet they were quite deep,so must have formed slowly over a considerable amount of time.We dont know how long they took to form yet,but just how do you fit them into a JB scenario?
I suppose you could argue that JB battered Nevill unconcious by the Aga then went up stairs to kill everyone else first,but this would not have taken very long surely? Not long enough for the burns to form by the sound of things,and why wouldn't he shoot Nevill first?

Of course,it has to be pointed out that Boyce and the campaign team believe that Nevill was dead by the time he was lying against the Aga,and that the police moved him upon entry.Just how this helps prove Bamber is innocent I am not sure? Surely their claim means that JB could have chased Nevill to the kitchen and killed him right away leaving him against the Aga, before leaving the house soon after?I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve with this claim?

Oh well,we'll soon find out what the CCRC makes of it all I suppose.

[Rob Garland]

I suppose,like everyone else,the police simply didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle back in 1985,eg.,the Aga burns to Nevills back.

Therefore,the official police scenarioo sent to the Director of public prosecutions back then falls flat.

That is,of course,IF the CCRC accept Boyce's Aga evidence.You see,the prosecution case has Nevill being shot in the main bedroom before running down to the kitchen where he is then beaten before ending up on the chair/scuttle to receive his final four head shots.There is no way of fitting in Nevill lying with his back against the Aga for several minutes or maybe for an hour or more.

And when you think it through,just what else could have made the burns to Nevills back,and just as importantly,why?

Until Boyce suggested the Aga,the burns to Nevills back were never thought of as accidental,that possibility was never discussed by the police,they needed to claim they were caused because of a more sinister reason,eg,prodding with the rifle,heating the rifle to check for signs of life or heating the rifle or some other instrument to inflict torture,none of which make any sense whatsoever from a guilty Bamber.Just how would JB think that by burning Nevills back three times in any way would point to Sheila as the killer? And if Nevill was in any sort of state to be tortured then he was also in a state where he could fight back surely?

Checking for signs of life? Not with four bullets in Nevills brain surely.
No,you dont have to think about the burn marks to Nevill for long to work out that they most likely occurred accidentally.There are only two choices,accidental or intentionally by the killer,and for me there is no contest.
The size and spacings of the marks on Nevills back are also very similar,if not identical to those in Boyce's pig skin experiments,and the handles on the Aga are obviously at just the right height for Nevills spine to land against while lying on his side.

Time wise,the Aga burns are important too,or should I say the time that Nevill needed to lye against the Aga for,for the burns to form.Obviously the Aga handles weren't red hot and branded Nevill right away,yet they were quite deep,so must have formed slowly over a considerable amount of time.We dont know how long they took to form yet,but just how do you fit them into a JB scenario?
I suppose you could argue that JB battered Nevill unconcious by the Aga then went up stairs to kill everyone else first,but this would not have taken very long surely? Not long enough for the burns to form by the sound of things,and why wouldn't he shoot Nevill first?

Of course,it has to be pointed out that Boyce and the campaign team believe that Nevill was dead by the time he was lying against the Aga,and that the police moved him upon entry.Just how this helps prove Bamber is innocent I am not sure? Surely their claim means that JB could have chased Nevill to the kitchen and killed him right away leaving him against the Aga, before leaving the house soon after?I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve with this claim?

Oh well,we'll soon find out what the CCRC makes of it all I suppose.

The burns or marks to Nevil are a interesting part of what happened that night Leslie, if the Aga did indeed cause the burns then the main aspect to me is that the burns had to have taken several hours to occur, as the temperature would not be that hot?

This means that the events played out over quite a considerable time as I don't believe the police would have moved Nevil from the floor to the chair? If the police did move Nevil it was because they dislodged him when they entered the kitchen and propped him back again?

If Bamber is the shooter it would be a quick in and out, if Nevil is injured by the Aga JB would simply leave him their and just finish him off.

So to me if the Aga caused the burns this points to Sheila?

[Leslie Aalders]

I suppose,like everyone else,the police simply didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle back in 1985,eg.,the Aga burns to Nevills back.

Therefore,the official police scenarioo sent to the Director of public prosecutions back then falls flat.

That is,of course,IF the CCRC accept Boyce's Aga evidence.You see,the prosecution case has Nevill being shot in the main bedroom before running down to the kitchen where he is then beaten before ending up on the chair/scuttle to receive his final four head shots.There is no way of fitting in Nevill lying with his back against the Aga for several minutes or maybe for an hour or more.

And when you think it through,just what else could have made the burns to Nevills back,and just as importantly,why?

Until Boyce suggested the Aga,the burns to Nevills back were never thought of as accidental,that possibility was never discussed by the police,they needed to claim they were caused because of a more sinister reason,eg,prodding with the rifle,heating the rifle to check for signs of life or heating the rifle or some other instrument to inflict torture,none of which make any sense whatsoever from a guilty Bamber.Just how would JB think that by burning Nevills back three times in any way would point to Sheila as the killer? And if Nevill was in any sort of state to be tortured then he was also in a state where he could fight back surely?

Checking for signs of life? Not with four bullets in Nevills brain surely.
No,you dont have to think about the burn marks to Nevill for long to work out that they most likely occurred accidentally.There are only two choices,accidental or intentionally by the killer,and for me there is no contest.
The size and spacings of the marks on Nevills back are also very similar,if not identical to those in Boyce's pig skin experiments,and the handles on the Aga are obviously at just the right height for Nevills spine to land against while lying on his side.

Time wise,the Aga burns are important too,or should I say the time that Nevill needed to lye against the Aga for,for the burns to form.Obviously the Aga handles weren't red hot and branded Nevill right away,yet they were quite deep,so must have formed slowly over a considerable amount of time.We dont know how long they took to form yet,but just how do you fit them into a JB scenario?
I suppose you could argue that JB battered Nevill unconcious by the Aga then went up stairs to kill everyone else first,but this would not have taken very long surely? Not long enough for the burns to form by the sound of things,and why wouldn't he shoot Nevill first?

Of course,it has to be pointed out that Boyce and the campaign team believe that Nevill was dead by the time he was lying against the Aga,and that the police moved him upon entry.Just how this helps prove Bamber is innocent I am not sure? Surely their claim means that JB could have chased Nevill to the kitchen and killed him right away leaving him against the Aga, before leaving the house soon after?I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve with this claim?

Oh well,we'll soon find out what the CCRC makes of it all I suppose.

The burns or marks to Nevil are a interesting part of what happened that night Leslie, if the Aga did indeed cause the burns then the main aspect to me is that the burns had to have taken several hours to occur, as the temperature would not be that hot?

This means that the events played out over quite a considerable time as I don't believe the police would have moved Nevil from the floor to the chair? If the police did move Nevil it was because they dislodged him when they entered the kitchen and propped him back again?

If Bamber is the shooter it would be a quick in and out, if Nevil is injured by the Aga JB would simply leave him their and just finish him off.

So to me if the Aga caused the burns this points to Sheila?

Yes,I agree with everything you say Rob,it is quite possible that the TFG dislodged Nevill upon entry,he may even have landed more or less where we see him,there may have been very little re-staging.

I just dont see why the police would have moved Nevill from the AGA to the chair/scuttle upon entry and I cant see what Boyce and the CT hope to achieve trying to prove this.

And think about this Rob,how could the killer return the silencer after the shooting if Nevill was sitting on a chair blocking  off the kitchen door completely? Obviously the silencer had to be back in the cupboard by then.
And Bamber could not have got to the den any other way,the key was in the lock on the inside of the back door wasn't it?
And lets just suppose that Nevill did topple into that possition on the scuttle as the TFG entered,in that case they did not lie in their statements,what they would have indeed seen as they entered the kitchen was Nevill sitting with his head in the scuttle,perfectly true!

So if Nevill was blocking the kitchen door,just when was the silencer returned to the den?
Well if Sheila was last to be killed,doesn't this rule Bamber out as the shooter? How could he replace the silencer after shooting Sheila if Nevill was blocking the door?
However,we have spoken of the possibility of Sheila replacing the silencer while Nevill is against the Aga,hence a clear path to the den at that time.
You could argue that JB shot Sheila first then returned the silencer,but why would he use the silencer on Sheila only? And besides,how could the silencer scratch the mantel shelf in the struggle with Nevill if it was back in the den by then?
Anyway,as you say,the Aga burns surely work in Bambers favour if accepted Rob.However,the CT trying to claim that the police moved Nevill from in front of the Aga to the chair/scuttle spoils JBs chances if you ask me ,what do you think their plan of action is?

[Rob Garland]

I suppose,like everyone else,the police simply didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle back in 1985,eg.,the Aga burns to Nevills back.

Therefore,the official police scenarioo sent to the Director of public prosecutions back then falls flat.

That is,of course,IF the CCRC accept Boyce's Aga evidence.You see,the prosecution case has Nevill being shot in the main bedroom before running down to the kitchen where he is then beaten before ending up on the chair/scuttle to receive his final four head shots.There is no way of fitting in Nevill lying with his back against the Aga for several minutes or maybe for an hour or more.

And when you think it through,just what else could have made the burns to Nevills back,and just as importantly,why?

Until Boyce suggested the Aga,the burns to Nevills back were never thought of as accidental,that possibility was never discussed by the police,they needed to claim they were caused because of a more sinister reason,eg,prodding with the rifle,heating the rifle to check for signs of life or heating the rifle or some other instrument to inflict torture,none of which make any sense whatsoever from a guilty Bamber.Just how would JB think that by burning Nevills back three times in any way would point to Sheila as the killer? And if Nevill was in any sort of state to be tortured then he was also in a state where he could fight back surely?

Checking for signs of life? Not with four bullets in Nevills brain surely.
No,you dont have to think about the burn marks to Nevill for long to work out that they most likely occurred accidentally.There are only two choices,accidental or intentionally by the killer,and for me there is no contest.
The size and spacings of the marks on Nevills back are also very similar,if not identical to those in Boyce's pig skin experiments,and the handles on the Aga are obviously at just the right height for Nevills spine to land against while lying on his side.

Time wise,the Aga burns are important too,or should I say the time that Nevill needed to lye against the Aga for,for the burns to form.Obviously the Aga handles weren't red hot and branded Nevill right away,yet they were quite deep,so must have formed slowly over a considerable amount of time.We dont know how long they took to form yet,but just how do you fit them into a JB scenario?
I suppose you could argue that JB battered Nevill unconcious by the Aga then went up stairs to kill everyone else first,but this would not have taken very long surely? Not long enough for the burns to form by the sound of things,and why wouldn't he shoot Nevill first?

Of course,it has to be pointed out that Boyce and the campaign team believe that Nevill was dead by the time he was lying against the Aga,and that the police moved him upon entry.Just how this helps prove Bamber is innocent I am not sure? Surely their claim means that JB could have chased Nevill to the kitchen and killed him right away leaving him against the Aga, before leaving the house soon after?I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve with this claim?

Oh well,we'll soon find out what the CCRC makes of it all I suppose.

The burns or marks to Nevil are a interesting part of what happened that night Leslie, if the Aga did indeed cause the burns then the main aspect to me is that the burns had to have taken several hours to occur, as the temperature would not be that hot?

This means that the events played out over quite a considerable time as I don't believe the police would have moved Nevil from the floor to the chair? If the police did move Nevil it was because they dislodged him when they entered the kitchen and propped him back again?

If Bamber is the shooter it would be a quick in and out, if Nevil is injured by the Aga JB would simply leave him their and just finish him off.

So to me if the Aga caused the burns this points to Sheila?

Yes,I agree with everything you say Rob,it is quite possible that the TFG dislodged Nevill upon entry,he may even have landed more or less where we see him,there may have been very little re-staging.

I just dont see why the police would have moved Nevill from the AGA to the chair/scuttle upon entry and I cant see what Boyce and the CT hope to achieve trying to prove this.

And think about this Rob,how could the killer return the silencer after the shooting if Nevill was sitting on a chair blocking  off the kitchen door completely? Obviously the silencer had to be back in the cupboard by then.
And Bamber could not have got to the den any other way,the key was in the lock on the inside of the back door wasn't it?
And lets just suppose that Nevill did topple into that possition on the scuttle as the TFG entered,in that case they did not lie in their statements,what they would have indeed seen as they entered the kitchen was Nevill sitting with his head in the scuttle,perfectly true!

So if Nevill was blocking the kitchen door,just when was the silencer returned to the den?
Well if Sheila was last to be killed,doesn't this rule Bamber out as the shooter? How could he replace the silencer after shooting Sheila if Nevill was blocking the door?
However,we have spoken of the possibility of Sheila replacing the silencer while Nevill is against the Aga,hence a clear path to the den at that time.
You could argue that JB shot Sheila first then returned the silencer,but why would he use the silencer on Sheila only? And besides,how could the silencer scratch the mantel shelf in the struggle with Nevill if it was back in the den by then?
Anyway,as you say,the Aga burns surely work in Bambers favour if accepted Rob.However,the CT trying to claim that the police moved Nevill from in front of the Aga to the chair/scuttle spoils JBs chances if you ask me ,what do you think their plan of action is?

I think the problem the CT have is fitting everything into a plausible timeline Leslie.

If the Aga caused the burns to Nevil was the phone call to JB before or after? I think the phone call must have come first, Nevil then somehow ends up lying injured against the Aga and if the burns take two hours to form that would mean the police are at the scene with Nevil still alive.

This is why the CT have the police moving Nevil but why?

It is possible Sheila hit Nevil with the rifle knocking him out and he landed against the Aga, before any shots had been fired. Time is not a problem in this scenario then when he comes to he calls JB. If shots have been fired I think Nevil would call 999 not JB?

[Leslie Aalders]

I suppose,like everyone else,the police simply didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle back in 1985,eg.,the Aga burns to Nevills back.

Therefore,the official police scenarioo sent to the Director of public prosecutions back then falls flat.

That is,of course,IF the CCRC accept Boyce's Aga evidence.You see,the prosecution case has Nevill being shot in the main bedroom before running down to the kitchen where he is then beaten before ending up on the chair/scuttle to receive his final four head shots.There is no way of fitting in Nevill lying with his back against the Aga for several minutes or maybe for an hour or more.

And when you think it through,just what else could have made the burns to Nevills back,and just as importantly,why?

Until Boyce suggested the Aga,the burns to Nevills back were never thought of as accidental,that possibility was never discussed by the police,they needed to claim they were caused because of a more sinister reason,eg,prodding with the rifle,heating the rifle to check for signs of life or heating the rifle or some other instrument to inflict torture,none of which make any sense whatsoever from a guilty Bamber.Just how would JB think that by burning Nevills back three times in any way would point to Sheila as the killer? And if Nevill was in any sort of state to be tortured then he was also in a state where he could fight back surely?

Checking for signs of life? Not with four bullets in Nevills brain surely.
No,you dont have to think about the burn marks to Nevill for long to work out that they most likely occurred accidentally.There are only two choices,accidental or intentionally by the killer,and for me there is no contest.
The size and spacings of the marks on Nevills back are also very similar,if not identical to those in Boyce's pig skin experiments,and the handles on the Aga are obviously at just the right height for Nevills spine to land against while lying on his side.

Time wise,the Aga burns are important too,or should I say the time that Nevill needed to lye against the Aga for,for the burns to form.Obviously the Aga handles weren't red hot and branded Nevill right away,yet they were quite deep,so must have formed slowly over a considerable amount of time.We dont know how long they took to form yet,but just how do you fit them into a JB scenario?
I suppose you could argue that JB battered Nevill unconcious by the Aga then went up stairs to kill everyone else first,but this would not have taken very long surely? Not long enough for the burns to form by the sound of things,and why wouldn't he shoot Nevill first?

Of course,it has to be pointed out that Boyce and the campaign team believe that Nevill was dead by the time he was lying against the Aga,and that the police moved him upon entry.Just how this helps prove Bamber is innocent I am not sure? Surely their claim means that JB could have chased Nevill to the kitchen and killed him right away leaving him against the Aga, before leaving the house soon after?I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve with this claim?

Oh well,we'll soon find out what the CCRC makes of it all I suppose.

The burns or marks to Nevil are a interesting part of what happened that night Leslie, if the Aga did indeed cause the burns then the main aspect to me is that the burns had to have taken several hours to occur, as the temperature would not be that hot?

This means that the events played out over quite a considerable time as I don't believe the police would have moved Nevil from the floor to the chair? If the police did move Nevil it was because they dislodged him when they entered the kitchen and propped him back again?

If Bamber is the shooter it would be a quick in and out, if Nevil is injured by the Aga JB would simply leave him their and just finish him off.

So to me if the Aga caused the burns this points to Sheila?

Yes,I agree with everything you say Rob,it is quite possible that the TFG dislodged Nevill upon entry,he may even have landed more or less where we see him,there may have been very little re-staging.

I just dont see why the police would have moved Nevill from the AGA to the chair/scuttle upon entry and I cant see what Boyce and the CT hope to achieve trying to prove this.

And think about this Rob,how could the killer return the silencer after the shooting if Nevill was sitting on a chair blocking  off the kitchen door completely? Obviously the silencer had to be back in the cupboard by then.
And Bamber could not have got to the den any other way,the key was in the lock on the inside of the back door wasn't it?
And lets just suppose that Nevill did topple into that possition on the scuttle as the TFG entered,in that case they did not lie in their statements,what they would have indeed seen as they entered the kitchen was Nevill sitting with his head in the scuttle,perfectly true!

So if Nevill was blocking the kitchen door,just when was the silencer returned to the den?
Well if Sheila was last to be killed,doesn't this rule Bamber out as the shooter? How could he replace the silencer after shooting Sheila if Nevill was blocking the door?
However,we have spoken of the possibility of Sheila replacing the silencer while Nevill is against the Aga,hence a clear path to the den at that time.
You could argue that JB shot Sheila first then returned the silencer,but why would he use the silencer on Sheila only? And besides,how could the silencer scratch the mantel shelf in the struggle with Nevill if it was back in the den by then?
Anyway,as you say,the Aga burns surely work in Bambers favour if accepted Rob.However,the CT trying to claim that the police moved Nevill from in front of the Aga to the chair/scuttle spoils JBs chances if you ask me ,what do you think their plan of action is?

I think the problem the CT have is fitting everything into a plausible timeline Leslie.

If the Aga caused the burns to Nevil was the phone call to JB before or after? I think the phone call must have come first, Nevil then somehow ends up lying injured against the Aga and if the burns take two hours to form that would mean the police are at the scene with Nevil still alive.

This is why the CT have the police moving Nevil but why?

It is possible Sheila hit Nevil with the rifle knocking him out and he landed against the Aga, before any shots had been fired. Time is not a problem in this scenario then when he comes to he calls JB. If shots have been fired I think Nevil would call 999 not JB?

But the thing is Rob,Boyce and the CT are claiming that Nevill was dead when he was lying against the Aga.

[Leslie Aalders]

If Boyce and the CT think that Nevill was already dead when he was lying against the Aga,when do they think he made the phone calls?
The CT think that Nevill made a call to the police as well as to Jeremy,this is part of the current submission to the CCRC.So when do they claim the calls were made?
Surely they will need a complete scenario to convince the CCRC and the rest of us of Bambers innocence?

[Leslie Aalders]

I suppose,if the CT can prove that a call was made to the police by Nevill then that would be all that is needed to prove JBs innocence.And this is indeed one of the points submitted to the CCRC.

[Leslie Aalders]

The thing is,if Nevill phoned the police at 3.25, was June and the boys dead by then?
If not,things must have moved fast before the police arrived.And why phone anyone if no one was injured at that point.? If they were dead,why didn't Nevill mention this to the police or JB?
Could they have been killed while Nevill was asleep down stairs? Surely not,wouldn't he have checked out what had happened when he woke up before phoning anyone?
And what about Nevill,was he uninjured when he made the calls to JB and the police?If so,we have to ask again,why was he phoning at all?
Now,Erik gave a scenario where things kick off in the kitchen between Nevill and Sheila, in which Nevill phones JB and Sheila runs up stairs and starts shooting.This is quite plausable,but there would have been no time for Nevill to call the police too before chasing after Sheila.
In all honesty,it is hard to come up with a scenario where Nevill gets a chance to call both JB and the police.
Yet,the CT claim that Nevill made a call to both JB and the police before being beaten and shot to death minutes later before falling against the Aga,then the police move Nevill to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
So when do the CT think Nevill was shot in the face and arm? Before the phone calls or after?
I simply cant work out a scenario that fits very well with Nevill calling the police then being moved by the TFG upon entry.
But I suppose, all that the CT need is proof of a call from Nevill,which they claim they have got.
So who knows,lets see what the CCRC conclude.

[Rob Garland]

The thing is,if Nevill phoned the police at 3.25, was June and the boys dead by then?
If not,things must have moved fast before the police arrived.And why phone anyone if no one was injured at that point.? If they were dead,why didn't Nevill mention this to the police or JB?
Could they have been killed while Nevill was asleep down stairs? Surely not,wouldn't he have checked out what had happened when he woke up before phoning anyone?
And what about Nevill,was he uninjured when he made the calls to JB and the police?If so,we have to ask again,why was he phoning at all?
Now,Erik gave a scenario where things kick off in the kitchen between Nevill and Sheila, in which Nevill phones JB and Sheila runs up stairs and starts shooting.This is quite plausable,but there would have been no time for Nevill to call the police too before chasing after Sheila.
In all honesty,it is hard to come up with a scenario where Nevill gets a chance to call both JB and the police.
Yet,the CT claim that Nevill made a call to both JB and the police before being beaten and shot to death minutes later before falling against the Aga,then the police move Nevill to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
So when do the CT think Nevill was shot in the face and arm? Before the phone calls or after?
I simply cant work out a scenario that fits very well with Nevill calling the police then being moved by the TFG upon entry.
But I suppose, all that the CT need is proof of a call from Nevill,which they claim they have got.
So who knows,lets see what the CCRC conclude.

If there is proof of a call to the police from Nevil this virtually clears JB Leslie unless the prosecution claims the call was faked? Did the police hide the call out of honorable intentions?

It is difficult to fit the burns into a scenario if they take several hours to form, unless the police did actually move Nevil upon entry to the kitchen but why?

The only other option and to me the most likely is the altercation between Nevil and Sheila played out over a much longer time period, but if Nevil somehow ended up against the Aga for several hours I believe the call to JB has to be before any shots have been fired?

If the Aga is the cause of the burns to me this greatly helps JB, there is no way JB would be messing around for several hours he would just finish Nevil off where he lay.

[Leslie Aalders]

The thing is,if Nevill phoned the police at 3.25, was June and the boys dead by then?
If not,things must have moved fast before the police arrived.And why phone anyone if no one was injured at that point.? If they were dead,why didn't Nevill mention this to the police or JB?
Could they have been killed while Nevill was asleep down stairs? Surely not,wouldn't he have checked out what had happened when he woke up before phoning anyone?
And what about Nevill,was he uninjured when he made the calls to JB and the police?If so,we have to ask again,why was he phoning at all?
Now,Erik gave a scenario where things kick off in the kitchen between Nevill and Sheila, in which Nevill phones JB and Sheila runs up stairs and starts shooting.This is quite plausable,but there would have been no time for Nevill to call the police too before chasing after Sheila.
In all honesty,it is hard to come up with a scenario where Nevill gets a chance to call both JB and the police.
Yet,the CT claim that Nevill made a call to both JB and the police before being beaten and shot to death minutes later before falling against the Aga,then the police move Nevill to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
So when do the CT think Nevill was shot in the face and arm? Before the phone calls or after?
I simply cant work out a scenario that fits very well with Nevill calling the police then being moved by the TFG upon entry.
But I suppose, all that the CT need is proof of a call from Nevill,which they claim they have got.
So who knows,lets see what the CCRC conclude.

If there is proof of a call to the police from Nevil this virtually clears JB Leslie unless the prosecution claims the call was faked? Did the police hide the call out of honorable intentions?

It is difficult to fit the burns into a scenario if they take several hours to form, unless the police did actually move Nevil upon entry to the kitchen but why?

The only other option and to me the most likely is the altercation between Nevil and Sheila played out over a much longer time period, but if Nevil somehow ended up against the Aga for several hours I believe the call to JB has to be before any shots have been fired?

If the Aga is the cause of the burns to me this greatly helps JB, there is no way JB would be messing around for several hours he would just finish Nevil off where he lay.

There is quite a comprehensive discussion about Nevills phone call to the police in the official JB innocence campaign forum Rob.The CT claim that recordings of calls from both JB and Nevill to the police should still exist as copies were made and no record of their destruction has been found.They think the recordings may be held under PII.
The CT make quite a good argument about the two written logs as well Rob and firmly believe that Nevill phoned the police at 3.26 and JB phoned them at 3.36.
So,if we go by this,how do we fit a scenario around these times? What state was everyone in when Nevill called the police at 3.26?
 The thing is,the CT dont give a comprehensive scenario,so we dont know what had happened prior to Nevill calling the police at 3.26,only that he was consequently beaten and shot to death before falling against the Aga and there after moved to the chair/scuttle by the police.

So,what the CT need to make clear is,did all the victims die after Nevill pnoned the police or was June and the boys already dead? If so,why didn't Nevill mention this to JB or the police?
And as you say Rob,what reason did the police have for moving Nevill after entry.
You would think if Sheila didn't start shooting till after Nevill called the police,then he must have been the first to die before June and the boys were awake,otherwise everyone would have been running about the house and the boys could not have possibly died in their sleep.Nevill must have been despatched first before Sheila headed up stairs to attack an unsuspecting June and twins,who must have still been sleeping after Nevill was shot.
Trouble is,we are told Nevill was shot four times before ending up in the kitchen.
So Rob,obviously what we have to ask is,how did it all kick off and what made Nevill decide to call JB and the police,and more importantly,where was Sheila when he was making the calls? Just how can the CT explain this?
Or indeed how can any of us??
Well,if we are to go by the CT scenario, then it must have been obvious to Nevill that Sheila was having a psychotic episode and was very dangerous.But why not phone her doctors for help? Well,obviously Sheila must have been in possesion of the rifle and terrifying Nevill.

Could it have kicked off in Sheilas bedroom? Did Nevill find her there with the rifle? This would at least explain Nevill being shot from above in the arm and shoulder while running down stairs.But what about the face shots before reaching the kitchen? He couldn't make the calls could he? We're more or less back to the police scenario of Nevill being unable to make the calls.

It gets confusing.Maybe we should look at the wording of Nevills calls to JB and the police?
CRAZY and BERSERK! Now,both those words are quite powerful,you dont use them unless someone is completely out of control,especially BERSERK.So what was Sheila doing,or HAD done for Nevill to use those words?
Obviously she was carrying on like a lunatic when Nevill made the calls,but where was she? WHERE ON EARTH was Sheila when Nevill was on the phone?
He couldn't just leave her to run amok and attack June and the boys.
Did Nevill manage to shut Sheila in a room while he was on the phone? How else could he get any peace to make the calls?
Anyway Rob,if it did all kick off at 3.26 when Nevill phoned the police,Sheila didn't have much time to kill eveyone before the police arrived.
Oh well,that will do for now I suppose.