Jeremy Bamber Discussion Forum

Quote from: Rob Garland on October 20, 2023, 07:48:51 AM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 19, 2023, 03:07:55 PM

Quote from: Rob Garland on October 19, 2023, 07:21:59 AM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 18, 2023, 10:17:35 PMI suppose,like everyone else,the police simply didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle back in 1985,eg.,the Aga burns to Nevills back.

Therefore,the official police scenarioo sent to the Director of public prosecutions back then falls flat.

That is,of course,IF the CCRC accept Boyce's Aga evidence.You see,the prosecution case has Nevill being shot in the main bedroom before running down to the kitchen where he is then beaten before ending up on the chair/scuttle to receive his final four head shots.There is no way of fitting in Nevill lying with his back against the Aga for several minutes or maybe for an hour or more.

And when you think it through,just what else could have made the burns to Nevills back,and just as importantly,why?

Until Boyce suggested the Aga,the burns to Nevills back were never thought of as accidental,that possibility was never discussed by the police,they needed to claim they were caused because of a more sinister reason,eg,prodding with the rifle,heating the rifle to check for signs of life or heating the rifle or some other instrument to inflict torture,none of which make any sense whatsoever from a guilty Bamber.Just how would JB think that by burning Nevills back three times in any way would point to Sheila as the killer? And if Nevill was in any sort of state to be tortured then he was also in a state where he could fight back surely?

Checking for signs of life? Not with four bullets in Nevills brain surely.
No,you dont have to think about the burn marks to Nevill for long to work out that they most likely occurred accidentally.There are only two choices,accidental or intentionally by the killer,and for me there is no contest.
The size and spacings of the marks on Nevills back are also very similar,if not identical to those in Boyce's pig skin experiments,and the handles on the Aga are obviously at just the right height for Nevills spine to land against while lying on his side.

Time wise,the Aga burns are important too,or should I say the time that Nevill needed to lye against the Aga for,for the burns to form.Obviously the Aga handles weren't red hot and branded Nevill right away,yet they were quite deep,so must have formed slowly over a considerable amount of time.We dont know how long they took to form yet,but just how do you fit them into a JB scenario?
I suppose you could argue that JB battered Nevill unconcious by the Aga then went up stairs to kill everyone else first,but this would not have taken very long surely? Not long enough for the burns to form by the sound of things,and why wouldn't he shoot Nevill first?

Of course,it has to be pointed out that Boyce and the campaign team believe that Nevill was dead by the time he was lying against the Aga,and that the police moved him upon entry.Just how this helps prove Bamber is innocent I am not sure? Surely their claim means that JB could have chased Nevill to the kitchen and killed him right away leaving him against the Aga, before leaving the house soon after?I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve with this claim?

Oh well,we'll soon find out what the CCRC makes of it all I suppose.

The burns or marks to Nevil are a interesting part of what happened that night Leslie, if the Aga did indeed cause the burns then the main aspect to me is that the burns had to have taken several hours to occur, as the temperature would not be that hot?

This means that the events played out over quite a considerable time as I don't believe the police would have moved Nevil from the floor to the chair? If the police did move Nevil it was because they dislodged him when they entered the kitchen and propped him back again?

If Bamber is the shooter it would be a quick in and out, if Nevil is injured by the Aga JB would simply leave him their and just finish him off.

So to me if the Aga caused the burns this points to Sheila?

Yes,I agree with everything you say Rob,it is quite possible that the TFG dislodged Nevill upon entry,he may even have landed more or less where we see him,there may have been very little re-staging.

I just dont see why the police would have moved Nevill from the AGA to the chair/scuttle upon entry and I cant see what Boyce and the CT hope to achieve trying to prove this.

And think about this Rob,how could the killer return the silencer after the shooting if Nevill was sitting on a chair blocking  off the kitchen door completely? Obviously the silencer had to be back in the cupboard by then.
And Bamber could not have got to the den any other way,the key was in the lock on the inside of the back door wasn't it?
And lets just suppose that Nevill did topple into that possition on the scuttle as the TFG entered,in that case they did not lie in their statements,what they would have indeed seen as they entered the kitchen was Nevill sitting with his head in the scuttle,perfectly true!

So if Nevill was blocking the kitchen door,just when was the silencer returned to the den?
Well if Sheila was last to be killed,doesn't this rule Bamber out as the shooter? How could he replace the silencer after shooting Sheila if Nevill was blocking the door?
However,we have spoken of the possibility of Sheila replacing the silencer while Nevill is against the Aga,hence a clear path to the den at that time.
You could argue that JB shot Sheila first then returned the silencer,but why would he use the silencer on Sheila only? And besides,how could the silencer scratch the mantel shelf in the struggle with Nevill if it was back in the den by then?
Anyway,as you say,the Aga burns surely work in Bambers favour if accepted Rob.However,the CT trying to claim that the police moved Nevill from in front of the Aga to the chair/scuttle spoils JBs chances if you ask me ,what do you think their plan of action is?

I think the problem the CT have is fitting everything into a plausible timeline Leslie.

If the Aga caused the burns to Nevil was the phone call to JB before or after? I think the phone call must have come first, Nevil then somehow ends up lying injured against the Aga and if the burns take two hours to form that would mean the police are at the scene with Nevil still alive.

This is why the CT have the police moving Nevil but why?

It is possible Sheila hit Nevil with the rifle knocking him out and he landed against the Aga, before any shots had been fired. Time is not a problem in this scenario then when he comes to he calls JB. If shots have been fired I think Nevil would call 999 not JB?

But the thing is Rob,Boyce and the CT are claiming that Nevill was dead when he was lying against the Aga.

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 19, 2023, 03:07:55 PM

Quote from: Rob Garland on October 19, 2023, 07:21:59 AM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 18, 2023, 10:17:35 PMI suppose,like everyone else,the police simply didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle back in 1985,eg.,the Aga burns to Nevills back.

Therefore,the official police scenarioo sent to the Director of public prosecutions back then falls flat.

That is,of course,IF the CCRC accept Boyce's Aga evidence.You see,the prosecution case has Nevill being shot in the main bedroom before running down to the kitchen where he is then beaten before ending up on the chair/scuttle to receive his final four head shots.There is no way of fitting in Nevill lying with his back against the Aga for several minutes or maybe for an hour or more.

And when you think it through,just what else could have made the burns to Nevills back,and just as importantly,why?

Until Boyce suggested the Aga,the burns to Nevills back were never thought of as accidental,that possibility was never discussed by the police,they needed to claim they were caused because of a more sinister reason,eg,prodding with the rifle,heating the rifle to check for signs of life or heating the rifle or some other instrument to inflict torture,none of which make any sense whatsoever from a guilty Bamber.Just how would JB think that by burning Nevills back three times in any way would point to Sheila as the killer? And if Nevill was in any sort of state to be tortured then he was also in a state where he could fight back surely?

Checking for signs of life? Not with four bullets in Nevills brain surely.
No,you dont have to think about the burn marks to Nevill for long to work out that they most likely occurred accidentally.There are only two choices,accidental or intentionally by the killer,and for me there is no contest.
The size and spacings of the marks on Nevills back are also very similar,if not identical to those in Boyce's pig skin experiments,and the handles on the Aga are obviously at just the right height for Nevills spine to land against while lying on his side.

Time wise,the Aga burns are important too,or should I say the time that Nevill needed to lye against the Aga for,for the burns to form.Obviously the Aga handles weren't red hot and branded Nevill right away,yet they were quite deep,so must have formed slowly over a considerable amount of time.We dont know how long they took to form yet,but just how do you fit them into a JB scenario?
I suppose you could argue that JB battered Nevill unconcious by the Aga then went up stairs to kill everyone else first,but this would not have taken very long surely? Not long enough for the burns to form by the sound of things,and why wouldn't he shoot Nevill first?

Of course,it has to be pointed out that Boyce and the campaign team believe that Nevill was dead by the time he was lying against the Aga,and that the police moved him upon entry.Just how this helps prove Bamber is innocent I am not sure? Surely their claim means that JB could have chased Nevill to the kitchen and killed him right away leaving him against the Aga, before leaving the house soon after?I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve with this claim?

Oh well,we'll soon find out what the CCRC makes of it all I suppose.

The burns or marks to Nevil are a interesting part of what happened that night Leslie, if the Aga did indeed cause the burns then the main aspect to me is that the burns had to have taken several hours to occur, as the temperature would not be that hot?

This means that the events played out over quite a considerable time as I don't believe the police would have moved Nevil from the floor to the chair? If the police did move Nevil it was because they dislodged him when they entered the kitchen and propped him back again?

If Bamber is the shooter it would be a quick in and out, if Nevil is injured by the Aga JB would simply leave him their and just finish him off.

So to me if the Aga caused the burns this points to Sheila?

Yes,I agree with everything you say Rob,it is quite possible that the TFG dislodged Nevill upon entry,he may even have landed more or less where we see him,there may have been very little re-staging.

I just dont see why the police would have moved Nevill from the AGA to the chair/scuttle upon entry and I cant see what Boyce and the CT hope to achieve trying to prove this.

And think about this Rob,how could the killer return the silencer after the shooting if Nevill was sitting on a chair blocking  off the kitchen door completely? Obviously the silencer had to be back in the cupboard by then.
And Bamber could not have got to the den any other way,the key was in the lock on the inside of the back door wasn't it?
And lets just suppose that Nevill did topple into that possition on the scuttle as the TFG entered,in that case they did not lie in their statements,what they would have indeed seen as they entered the kitchen was Nevill sitting with his head in the scuttle,perfectly true!

So if Nevill was blocking the kitchen door,just when was the silencer returned to the den?
Well if Sheila was last to be killed,doesn't this rule Bamber out as the shooter? How could he replace the silencer after shooting Sheila if Nevill was blocking the door?
However,we have spoken of the possibility of Sheila replacing the silencer while Nevill is against the Aga,hence a clear path to the den at that time.
You could argue that JB shot Sheila first then returned the silencer,but why would he use the silencer on Sheila only? And besides,how could the silencer scratch the mantel shelf in the struggle with Nevill if it was back in the den by then?
Anyway,as you say,the Aga burns surely work in Bambers favour if accepted Rob.However,the CT trying to claim that the police moved Nevill from in front of the Aga to the chair/scuttle spoils JBs chances if you ask me ,what do you think their plan of action is?

I think the problem the CT have is fitting everything into a plausible timeline Leslie.

If the Aga caused the burns to Nevil was the phone call to JB before or after? I think the phone call must have come first, Nevil then somehow ends up lying injured against the Aga and if the burns take two hours to form that would mean the police are at the scene with Nevil still alive.

This is why the CT have the police moving Nevil but why?

It is possible Sheila hit Nevil with the rifle knocking him out and he landed against the Aga, before any shots had been fired. Time is not a problem in this scenario then when he comes to he calls JB. If shots have been fired I think Nevil would call 999 not JB?

Quote from: Rob Garland on October 19, 2023, 07:21:59 AM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 18, 2023, 10:17:35 PMI suppose,like everyone else,the police simply didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle back in 1985,eg.,the Aga burns to Nevills back.

Therefore,the official police scenarioo sent to the Director of public prosecutions back then falls flat.

That is,of course,IF the CCRC accept Boyce's Aga evidence.You see,the prosecution case has Nevill being shot in the main bedroom before running down to the kitchen where he is then beaten before ending up on the chair/scuttle to receive his final four head shots.There is no way of fitting in Nevill lying with his back against the Aga for several minutes or maybe for an hour or more.

And when you think it through,just what else could have made the burns to Nevills back,and just as importantly,why?

Until Boyce suggested the Aga,the burns to Nevills back were never thought of as accidental,that possibility was never discussed by the police,they needed to claim they were caused because of a more sinister reason,eg,prodding with the rifle,heating the rifle to check for signs of life or heating the rifle or some other instrument to inflict torture,none of which make any sense whatsoever from a guilty Bamber.Just how would JB think that by burning Nevills back three times in any way would point to Sheila as the killer? And if Nevill was in any sort of state to be tortured then he was also in a state where he could fight back surely?

Checking for signs of life? Not with four bullets in Nevills brain surely.
No,you dont have to think about the burn marks to Nevill for long to work out that they most likely occurred accidentally.There are only two choices,accidental or intentionally by the killer,and for me there is no contest.
The size and spacings of the marks on Nevills back are also very similar,if not identical to those in Boyce's pig skin experiments,and the handles on the Aga are obviously at just the right height for Nevills spine to land against while lying on his side.

Time wise,the Aga burns are important too,or should I say the time that Nevill needed to lye against the Aga for,for the burns to form.Obviously the Aga handles weren't red hot and branded Nevill right away,yet they were quite deep,so must have formed slowly over a considerable amount of time.We dont know how long they took to form yet,but just how do you fit them into a JB scenario?
I suppose you could argue that JB battered Nevill unconcious by the Aga then went up stairs to kill everyone else first,but this would not have taken very long surely? Not long enough for the burns to form by the sound of things,and why wouldn't he shoot Nevill first?

Of course,it has to be pointed out that Boyce and the campaign team believe that Nevill was dead by the time he was lying against the Aga,and that the police moved him upon entry.Just how this helps prove Bamber is innocent I am not sure? Surely their claim means that JB could have chased Nevill to the kitchen and killed him right away leaving him against the Aga, before leaving the house soon after?I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve with this claim?

Oh well,we'll soon find out what the CCRC makes of it all I suppose.

The burns or marks to Nevil are a interesting part of what happened that night Leslie, if the Aga did indeed cause the burns then the main aspect to me is that the burns had to have taken several hours to occur, as the temperature would not be that hot?

This means that the events played out over quite a considerable time as I don't believe the police would have moved Nevil from the floor to the chair? If the police did move Nevil it was because they dislodged him when they entered the kitchen and propped him back again?

If Bamber is the shooter it would be a quick in and out, if Nevil is injured by the Aga JB would simply leave him their and just finish him off.

So to me if the Aga caused the burns this points to Sheila?

Yes,I agree with everything you say Rob,it is quite possible that the TFG dislodged Nevill upon entry,he may even have landed more or less where we see him,there may have been very little re-staging.

I just dont see why the police would have moved Nevill from the AGA to the chair/scuttle upon entry and I cant see what Boyce and the CT hope to achieve trying to prove this.

And think about this Rob,how could the killer return the silencer after the shooting if Nevill was sitting on a chair blocking  off the kitchen door completely? Obviously the silencer had to be back in the cupboard by then.
And Bamber could not have got to the den any other way,the key was in the lock on the inside of the back door wasn't it?
And lets just suppose that Nevill did topple into that possition on the scuttle as the TFG entered,in that case they did not lie in their statements,what they would have indeed seen as they entered the kitchen was Nevill sitting with his head in the scuttle,perfectly true!

So if Nevill was blocking the kitchen door,just when was the silencer returned to the den?
Well if Sheila was last to be killed,doesn't this rule Bamber out as the shooter? How could he replace the silencer after shooting Sheila if Nevill was blocking the door?
However,we have spoken of the possibility of Sheila replacing the silencer while Nevill is against the Aga,hence a clear path to the den at that time.
You could argue that JB shot Sheila first then returned the silencer,but why would he use the silencer on Sheila only? And besides,how could the silencer scratch the mantel shelf in the struggle with Nevill if it was back in the den by then?
Anyway,as you say,the Aga burns surely work in Bambers favour if accepted Rob.However,the CT trying to claim that the police moved Nevill from in front of the Aga to the chair/scuttle spoils JBs chances if you ask me ,what do you think their plan of action is?

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 18, 2023, 10:17:35 PMI suppose,like everyone else,the police simply didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle back in 1985,eg.,the Aga burns to Nevills back.

Therefore,the official police scenarioo sent to the Director of public prosecutions back then falls flat.

That is,of course,IF the CCRC accept Boyce's Aga evidence.You see,the prosecution case has Nevill being shot in the main bedroom before running down to the kitchen where he is then beaten before ending up on the chair/scuttle to receive his final four head shots.There is no way of fitting in Nevill lying with his back against the Aga for several minutes or maybe for an hour or more.

And when you think it through,just what else could have made the burns to Nevills back,and just as importantly,why?

Until Boyce suggested the Aga,the burns to Nevills back were never thought of as accidental,that possibility was never discussed by the police,they needed to claim they were caused because of a more sinister reason,eg,prodding with the rifle,heating the rifle to check for signs of life or heating the rifle or some other instrument to inflict torture,none of which make any sense whatsoever from a guilty Bamber.Just how would JB think that by burning Nevills back three times in any way would point to Sheila as the killer? And if Nevill was in any sort of state to be tortured then he was also in a state where he could fight back surely?

Checking for signs of life? Not with four bullets in Nevills brain surely.
No,you dont have to think about the burn marks to Nevill for long to work out that they most likely occurred accidentally.There are only two choices,accidental or intentionally by the killer,and for me there is no contest.
The size and spacings of the marks on Nevills back are also very similar,if not identical to those in Boyce's pig skin experiments,and the handles on the Aga are obviously at just the right height for Nevills spine to land against while lying on his side.

Time wise,the Aga burns are important too,or should I say the time that Nevill needed to lye against the Aga for,for the burns to form.Obviously the Aga handles weren't red hot and branded Nevill right away,yet they were quite deep,so must have formed slowly over a considerable amount of time.We dont know how long they took to form yet,but just how do you fit them into a JB scenario?
I suppose you could argue that JB battered Nevill unconcious by the Aga then went up stairs to kill everyone else first,but this would not have taken very long surely? Not long enough for the burns to form by the sound of things,and why wouldn't he shoot Nevill first?

Of course,it has to be pointed out that Boyce and the campaign team believe that Nevill was dead by the time he was lying against the Aga,and that the police moved him upon entry.Just how this helps prove Bamber is innocent I am not sure? Surely their claim means that JB could have chased Nevill to the kitchen and killed him right away leaving him against the Aga, before leaving the house soon after?I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve with this claim?

Oh well,we'll soon find out what the CCRC makes of it all I suppose.

The burns or marks to Nevil are a interesting part of what happened that night Leslie, if the Aga did indeed cause the burns then the main aspect to me is that the burns had to have taken several hours to occur, as the temperature would not be that hot?

This means that the events played out over quite a considerable time as I don't believe the police would have moved Nevil from the floor to the chair? If the police did move Nevil it was because they dislodged him when they entered the kitchen and propped him back again?

If Bamber is the shooter it would be a quick in and out, if Nevil is injured by the Aga JB would simply leave him their and just finish him off.

So to me if the Aga caused the burns this points to Sheila?

I suppose,like everyone else,the police simply didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle back in 1985,eg.,the Aga burns to Nevills back.

Therefore,the official police scenarioo sent to the Director of public prosecutions back then falls flat.

That is,of course,IF the CCRC accept Boyce's Aga evidence.You see,the prosecution case has Nevill being shot in the main bedroom before running down to the kitchen where he is then beaten before ending up on the chair/scuttle to receive his final four head shots.There is no way of fitting in Nevill lying with his back against the Aga for several minutes or maybe for an hour or more.

And when you think it through,just what else could have made the burns to Nevills back,and just as importantly,why?

Until Boyce suggested the Aga,the burns to Nevills back were never thought of as accidental,that possibility was never discussed by the police,they needed to claim they were caused because of a more sinister reason,eg,prodding with the rifle,heating the rifle to check for signs of life or heating the rifle or some other instrument to inflict torture,none of which make any sense whatsoever from a guilty Bamber.Just how would JB think that by burning Nevills back three times in any way would point to Sheila as the killer? And if Nevill was in any sort of state to be tortured then he was also in a state where he could fight back surely?

Checking for signs of life? Not with four bullets in Nevills brain surely.
No,you dont have to think about the burn marks to Nevill for long to work out that they most likely occurred accidentally.There are only two choices,accidental or intentionally by the killer,and for me there is no contest.
The size and spacings of the marks on Nevills back are also very similar,if not identical to those in Boyce's pig skin experiments,and the handles on the Aga are obviously at just the right height for Nevills spine to land against while lying on his side.

Time wise,the Aga burns are important too,or should I say the time that Nevill needed to lye against the Aga for,for the burns to form.Obviously the Aga handles weren't red hot and branded Nevill right away,yet they were quite deep,so must have formed slowly over a considerable amount of time.We dont know how long they took to form yet,but just how do you fit them into a JB scenario?
I suppose you could argue that JB battered Nevill unconcious by the Aga then went up stairs to kill everyone else first,but this would not have taken very long surely? Not long enough for the burns to form by the sound of things,and why wouldn't he shoot Nevill first?

Of course,it has to be pointed out that Boyce and the campaign team believe that Nevill was dead by the time he was lying against the Aga,and that the police moved him upon entry.Just how this helps prove Bamber is innocent I am not sure? Surely their claim means that JB could have chased Nevill to the kitchen and killed him right away leaving him against the Aga, before leaving the house soon after?I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve with this claim?

Oh well,we'll soon find out what the CCRC makes of it all I suppose.

Quote from: Rob Garland on October 16, 2023, 04:33:15 PMI believe Millar in a TV interview I saw also said the silencer was sticky, would super glue fuming testing for fingerprints make the silencer sticky?

DB seems to contradict himself a lot, in one statement he saw the paint / blood when the silencer was found at WHF then in another it was latter at Ann's house I believe.

Yes,Erik also mentions the superglue in the first post Rob.

I believe Millar in a TV interview I saw also said the silencer was sticky, would super glue fuming testing for fingerprints make the silencer sticky?

DB seems to contradict himself a lot, in one statement he saw the paint / blood when the silencer was found at WHF then in another it was latter at Ann's house I believe.

Yes,I suppose the prosecution had to claim that Sheila had no other wounds appart from the two gunshot injuries to the neck so that they could claim that was the only source of her blood that night.

Now Bill thinks that Vanezis may have kept additional wounds to Sheila quiet,otherwise it would prove that she fought with the other victims,and no doubt this may be correct,but the same is true regarding Sheila returning the silencer to the gun cupboard.
What the police are claiming is that the ONLY time that Sheila bled on the night of the murders was from the two gun shot wounds to the neck/chin.Obviously if the prosecution conceded that Sheila had ANY other wounds which could have bled beforehand,then the defence could have claimed that some of that blood could have got into the silencer when Sheila was in a good enough condition to return it to the cupboard before shooting herself.

So,from a prosecution point of view the suggestion of any other cuts to Sheila on the night of the murders had to become taboo for a number of reasons.
Then with the backspatter phenomena claim introduced, it seemed the only  scenario  possible was that  Sheila was shot by Bamber who then put the silencer back in the cupboard unaware that Sheilas blood had been blown back into it..And that is what the public believe,that the case against Bamber is cast iron,Sheila simply couldn't shoot herself to death then replace the silencer in the gun cupboard,IMPOSSIBLE!

However,with the introduction of the Aga burns, it turns out that the shooting may have taken several hours to unfold,and that Sheila may have received cuts from the rifle mechanism or Junes finger nails amongst other possibilities,and that she had plenty of time to replace the silencer once everyone was dead or wounded.
So IS the case against Bamber cast iron,even if it WAS Sheilas blood in the silencer?

What if Sheila attached the silencer a little bit too tightly and couldn't unscrew it again?
Might she have used a cloth or something as you would with a jar lid,and might that cloth have had some sort of sticky substance on it?

Quote from: Rob Garland on October 14, 2023, 09:31:38 PM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 13, 2023, 11:28:06 PMOf course,there is the possibility that Sheila DID attach the silencer before the shooting,also hoping for a silent massacre,before returning it mid way through the shooting to the gun cupboard.This may not be as far fetched as we think now that the Aga burns have been introduced.
I will try and come up with a reasonably plausible scenario to suit this.

The silencer from a human ears point of view makes little difference when using low velocity ammunition Leslie.

Yes,so I believe Rob.In fact I have just mentioned that fact in the scenario I have posted tonight.