Jeremy Bamber Discussion Forum

The problems with the silencer as part of the murder weapon start with crime scene choreography.

Where is Jeremy stood when he removes the silencer from the rifle?

How does he manage to cross through the crime scene, including the kitchen, without leaving any traces of blood transfers in Nevill's den?

Still on the choreography of the scene, within any Jeremy scenario, is there a need for the silencer at all?  I think there is a case to be made for it.

Jeremy can incapacitate his parents at the outset.  However, there may have been a risk of alerting Sheila to his presence. 

He really has a choice:

Subdue Sheila first or incapacitate his parents first.  Which? 

Either way, you could argue that the silencer assisted him.  The massacre could be executed pretty quickly, and if Sheila is - as the prosecution claim - sedated and drowsy, etc., then why worry about her?  If Jeremy gets into a bit of a struggle with Sheila and she ends up with marks on her, that can be explained away, but there is also the risk of Sheila marking Jeremy or leaving forensic traces on Jeremy that he then has to explain to investigators.

Another point to consider is the twins. All that needs to happen is one of the twins to wake up and start making noise, and then his precise plan as you have laid out is potentially thrown into disarray.  What if one of the twins decides to run away and hide somewhere?

I return to my original point, however.

I'm referring to blood prints from Jeremy.  How can it be that Jeremy has crossed the floor of the den and put his hand and arm in the gun cupboard without leaving any trace of blood?  Did he wash himself and change his boots before entering the back corridor?

Paw prints from Crispy isn't such a strange notion either.

If Sheila's feet were, as you claim, perfectly clean, then she must have been carried by Jeremy to the master bedroom and she can't have struggled or moved around, yet you have Jeremy ungagging and untying her before shooting her.  She must have offered up no resistance, perhaps not realising what had just happened.

My pet theory about the silencer is, briefly, that at least two of them were examined by the FSS, and one was returned to the Eatons after undergoing chemical treatment for fingerprinting purposes.  David Boutflour has then handled this, or seen it, and confused one with the other in his own mind.  On the other hand, I accept that it is possible a guilty Jeremy would miss the 'stickiness', etc., of the silencer if he was wearing gloves, and he could also miss a hair.

Yet then you have to ask yourself this: How and in what way and to what extent did he clean the silencer, if at all?  If we're saying he didn't clean it because all he was doing was moving it out of the way so that it would not be found, you then have to ask:

(i). Would Jeremy be that stupid in assuming that the police would not search the place in the house dedicated to the storage of firearms and paraphernalia?  He is supposed to have planned this.

(ii). Why wouldn't Jeremy just take the silencer away with him?  Even if it's absence would be noticed and seen as suspicious, he would never have been convicted on that basis.

(iii). Why didn't Jeremy return to clean the silencer properly?  Why did he allow the relatives keys to the house instead?

(iv). If Jeremy took himself and the silencer to the gun cupboard, why wasn't blood found on the floor of the back corridor, Nevill's den and in the gun cupboard itself?

I could go on with the problems.  Really, Jeremy's actions don't make a lot of sense if we accept the official narrative.  It's a bit of paradox to say that Jeremy is cold and calculating enough to stage a phone call and put on an act with the police, relatives and at the funeral and in other respects, but at the same time, he would not take care of incriminating evidence.  Maybe he was just reckless and arrogant and thought he had got away with it?  But this is looking at things backwards.  At the point he could have disposed of the silencer, he did not know that he had got away with it.  I also have issues with the blood patterning found within the silencer.  There's also the problem with the drawback theory that the silencer evidence depends on.  And there's the questions about the chain-of-custody of the silencer.

Jeremy, it is alleged, left the silencer in situ after shooting his family.  I suppose the official theory is that he did this because he had not expected to have to remove the silencer from the rifle, so he had to think quickly and decided it would be better to return the silencer to the gun cupboard rather than take it with him, so that it would not be missed.

I accept that this is plausible, but I personally would have thought the more natural thing to do would be to simply leave the silencer by Sheila's body.  That way, the police find it immediately and the explanation is obvious, and then it's much harder to incriminate Jeremy.

Why didn't he do that (assuming he is guilty)?  If I were a convinced guilter, I would need to satisfy myself on that point.  There must be a reason.  Maybe he just panicked?

The alternatives are you either clean the silencer there and then and return it to the gun cupboard, or you take the silencer with you.

The last of those three options is adequate but risks suspicion being cast on him due to somebody noticing the silencer is missing.  But then you have to ask: How would the police know the silencer is missing?  Does the firearms certificate held by Nevill record it?  I'll have to check, but would the police be that thorough or make the connection?  Really?  It would be a bit of a stretch.  All Jeremy would need to do in this situation is ensure he took custody of the farmhouse after the police left.

Instead, he leaves the family to take custody of the farmhouse and the crucial evidence he has left there - part of the murder weapon.

I find it hard to believe.  The gun cupboard is in Nevill's den.  If you look at photographs of the den, you'll see the carpet is a cream or cork colour and immaculate.  How did Jeremy manage to negotiate that carpet without leaving blood?  And there was no blood in the gun cupboard except on the silencer itself.

Some further issues:

First, if Sheila had already started shooting and/or wounded somebody and Nevill had managed to seize the rifle from her, the police would have been called and the incident would have ended there and then, so the issue of blood traces would have been moot.  If Sheila was the killer, then she must have caught Nevill off-guard somehow or escaped from him.

Second, Nevill (and/or June) would not have just moved the silencer.  They would have moved the rifle.  Furthermore, if we imagine a scenario in which, after Jeremy leaves, Nevill has returned the rifle to the gun cupboard, then a factor to consider is that the gun cupboard was supposed to be locked and secured per the conditions of Nevill's firearms certificate but wasn't.  It wasn't even lockable, despite Nevill's arangements having been inspected by an Essex police officer a few months before.  This can clearly be seen in the photographs.  This means there was no way for Nevill (or Jeremy himself) to secure the firearms against Sheila or a third party intruder.

I believe it follows from all this that:

(i). in an alternate scenario in which Sheila is the killer, there cannot have been any immediate prior incident in which Sheila used or threatened to use the rifle, which means that Sheila did not enter the den that night, and Sheila must have gone downstairs and into the back corridor alone. Sheila would not then detach the silencer prior to shooting the family.  She would simply pick up and use the rifle with it left on.  This, I believe, explains Rivlin's defence strategy; and,

(ii). logically, only two people could have detached the silencer and replaced it in the gun cupboard prior to the incident: Jeremy or Sheila.  If the killer was Sheila, that means either there was a long pause before her suicide, or an innocent Jeremy had detached the silencer at some prior point.  Conversely, if the killer was Jeremy, then he has somehow managed to leave the silencer in the cupboard without leaving any transferred blood traces anywhere.

With the luxury of hindsight we can see that a different conclusion is possible to that of Rivlin, which is that the silencer was taken off the rifle by Jeremy before he even returned to the farmhouse and witnessed the family meeting in the kitchen.  He did not take the silencer off the rifle only at that point, but some time before then, maybe days before, maybe earlier that day, who knows?  He probably can't remember himself.  The significance of the point is that it allows the possibility of the silencer being found by somebody after the shootings and maliciously or mistakenly entering it into evidence against Jeremy.

To my mind, Jeremy's story of him shooting [at] rabbits just prior to leaving for home supports his claim that the rifle did not already have the silencer on it, implying that the silencer has been removed at some undetermined point prior to that.  He would not have gone out and started shooting [at] rabbits with the silencer on, as this would not have scared off the rabbits.  I do think he was shooting at the rabbits more than shooting the rabbits - if you see the distinction.  You don't use a rifle like that just to shoot one rabbit after another.  It's not possible.  Anybody familiar with these firearms will, I hope, concur with me on that point.

Let's think about this further:

My own view is that Jeremy would not have taken the rifle back downstairs at all.  He had no reason to, and he was also unlikely to, because remember that in order to figure out how to stage Sheila's suicide, he had to take the silencer off the rifle and then place the rifle on Sheila's body.  He would have just left the rifle on or by the body and put the silencer in the gun cupboard before leaving.

However, we can't rule out completely the idea that after placing the rifle on Sheila's body, he decided that he needed to check on Nevill by prodding him with the rifle, so returned downstairs with the rifle having the intention of putting it back on Sheila's body later.  So let's assume that Jeremy returns the silencer to the gun cupboard, and in doing so, he also checks Nevill's body with the rifle.

The immediate problem Jeremy would have is that Nevill's body blocks the way to the den.  How does he get to the gun cupboard if he can't get through the back door of the kitchen into the back corridor?

It must be that Jeremy moved the body either before or after leaving the silencer in the gun cupboard (and if before, that means he's moved it twice).  But why would Jeremy block the back door of the kitchen with Nevill's body?  One possibility is that Nevill was still alive and after killing Sheila, Jeremy heard Nevill downstairs or even when he was in Nevill's den, and that is when the struggle between them ensued in which Jeremy hits a dying Nevill with the rifle butt, etc.

The next problem is how Jeremy can go through the back corridor and across the floor of the den without leaving blood traces and blood prints (feet, hands, fingers) on the floor and walls and in the gun cupboard itself.  He is carrying a silencer that has blood in it and he must have blood on his shoes/boots and clothing as he has presumably struggled with Nevill.  This I can't explain.  Did Jeremy remove all his clothing and tip-toe across?

But surely Sheila could have used the silencer and then taken it off to shoot herself, leaving the silencer by her body.  That, to me, seems the more likely method for staging her suicide.

Taking a step back, we know that the rifle did not fit in the gun cupboard with the silencer on.  It follows that anybody returning the rifle to the house would unscrew the silencer, but we also know that Jeremy says he went out to shoot rabbits.  One argument is that Jeremy would keep the silencer on in that situation in order to be able to kill as many rabbits as possible.  The other argument is that he would take it off so that the audible crack of the rifle would scare them away.  It's also the case that the silencer could plausibly be off the rifle because, if it had to be unscrewed to fit it in the gun cupboard, somebody could absent-mindedly leave the silencer behind.  So we're left with uncertainty.

I would normally go with the prosecution argument because the 'silent massacre' theory makes sense, and Jeremy could have miscalculated the staging and then panicked and returned the silencer to the gun cupboard, thinking it would then be out of the way but at the same time could be accounted-for, thus averting suspicion.  It would have been simpler and better to leave the silencer by her body, but the simpler solutions aren't always apparent in a situation like that.

The difficulty is that to return the silencer to the gun cupboard, Jeremy needed to cross the back corridor and the floor of the den, and there is no blood there.  There is also no blood on the door of the gun cupboard or inside the gun cupboard (other than in and on the silencer itself).  How can that be?

The police also checked the gun cupboard and did not find the silencer in there.

Jeremy also allowed the relatives free access to the farmhouse, and must have known they would seize this evidence.

It doesn't add up.  The evidence points away from the gun cupboard, not to it.  It's at least a basis for reasonable doubt, in my view.

Quote from: Erik Narramore on January 29, 2022, 01:00:02 AMBut surely Sheila could have used the silencer and then taken it off to shoot herself, leaving the silencer by her body.  That, to me, seems the more likely method for staging her suicide.

Taking a step back, we know that the rifle did not fit in the gun cupboard with the silencer on.  It follows that anybody returning the rifle to the house would unscrew the silencer, but we also know that Jeremy says he went out to shoot rabbits.  One argument is that Jeremy would keep the silencer on in that situation in order to be able to kill as many rabbits as possible.  The other argument is that he would take it off so that the audible crack of the rifle would scare them away.  It's also the case that the silencer could plausibly be off the rifle because, if it had to be unscrewed to fit it in the gun cupboard, somebody could absent-mindedly leave the silencer behind.  So we're left with uncertainty.

I would normally go with the prosecution argument because the 'silent massacre' theory makes sense, and Jeremy could have miscalculated the staging and then panicked and returned the silencer to the gun cupboard, thinking it would then be out of the way but at the same time could be accounted-for, thus averting suspicion.  It would have been simpler and better to leave the silencer by her body, but the simpler solutions aren't always apparent in a situation like that.

The difficulty is that to return the silencer to the gun cupboard, Jeremy needed to cross the back corridor and the floor of the den, and there is no blood there.  There is also no blood on the door of the gun cupboard or inside the gun cupboard (other than in and on the silencer itself).  How can that be?

The police also checked the gun cupboard and did not find the silencer in there.

Jeremy also allowed the relatives free access to the farmhouse, and must have known they would seize this evidence.

It doesn't add up.  The evidence points away from the gun cupboard, not to it.  It's at least a basis for reasonable doubt, in my view.

This seems to be a suitable place to discuss the silencer.

So,lets take another look at the official series of events regarding the silencer and the possibility that it was planted Rob.Although by planted,do you mean the silencer its self Rob or just the blood and paint.
In other words,do you think the silencer was taken out of the gun cupboard then contaminated and replaced,or simply planted there once the police had left White House Farm?

Anyway,if Jeremy Bamber is guilty he shot his family with the silencer attached then unscrewed it and put it in the gun cupboard.Erik has extensively pointed out the problems JB would have had returning the silencer to the den in the previous posts.Ok,the police search the house including the gun cupboard but do not find the silencer or sights.When JB is giving his statement to the police on 7th-8th Aug,Anne Eaton or her brother Dave or maybe both, hear JB tell the police that the silencer and sights were not attached to the rifle when he took it out to shoot rabbits on the evening before the shooting.

Anne Eaton and Dave then discuss the abscence of the sights and silencer with Anthony Pargetter and Annes husband Peter and they decide it is suspicious to remove  them,especially the sights,also, Anthony P had noticed the sights and silencer were attached the weekend before the murders when he visited WHF.

So,along with other things that JB told the police,ie,the phone call from Nevill, the relatives quickly concluded that JB was the killer and not Sheila,so much so that they went to the police on the afternoon of 9th Aug with their concerns.In fact Anthony had already phoned Taff on the 8th about the sights and silencer.So,in the days after the shooting,half the relatives time was taken up comforting Jeremy and helping arrange the funerals and the other half trying to prove Jeremy was the killer of his family and convince the police of this.
Anyway,due to the relatives going to the police,Taff and Stan Jones go back to question JB in the evening of the 9th.Taff asks about the sights and silencer,to which JB replies that his father must have removed them.Jb signed a form that same night giving the police permission to hand the keys of WHF to Anne Eaton.

So,at this stage,the police are quizzing JB about the sights and silencer for the Anschutz,while at the same time asking his permission to give AE the keys to WHF to clean up.Anne Eaton and other relatives enter WHF the very next day,10th Aug,along with Basil Cock the executer,and while looking for firearms Dave Boutflour finds the sights and bloodied silencer in the gun cupboard,it also has scratch marks on it and red paint.The relatives take the sights and silencer as well as boxes of bullets and cartridges home and hand the silencer to the police a few days later.
About this time,the 12th Aug,AE phones Jeremy and asks him to meet her at WHF along with Julie for coffee.JB and Julie go to WHF but there is no mention of him looking in the gun cupboard at any time,the only thing he looked for was Nevills wallet.
JB subsequently goes through WHF and sells off some items,the silencer however is never mentioned as being missing by himself or in any of Julie's statements,and there is no record of JB asking the police if they had the sights and silencer for the Anschutz in their possesion.If JB looked for the silencer or enquired about it to the relatives or the police there is no record of this,in fact the first he heard about the silencer after the murders was when he was arrested and told that Sheila's blood had been found in it.Whether he was told at that stage that the relatives had actually found the silencer and handed it in I do not know.
So,thats more or less what happened apparently,in the next post we will look at the problems with the official scenario,although most of them have already been pointed out by Erik in the previous posts on this thread.

So,let us see if the official story about the silencer adds up then.
It isn't clear who first mentioned the silencer after the murders or why,but things happened pretty fast,by her own addmission Anne Eaton didn't even know that Nevill/JB had bought an Anschutz rifle let alone a silencer or sights for it.Yet by the time Anthony Pargetter arrived on the scene on 8th Aug the day after the shooting, she was able to tell him what gun was used for the shooting and that it was minus the sights and silencer at the time.
Now,AP had seen the Anschutz with the sights and silencer attached at WHF the previous weekend while on a visit,and after hearing they were not on the rifle when it was found on Sheila's body immediately phoned Taff,what was said I do not know.
So, right away after the shooting the sights and silencer are THE main items of interest fer the relatives,they cannot accept JBs story about removing them to fit in the gun cupboard.Although,I believe JB said the sights were removed to allow the rifle to fit in its case,which makes sense If its not being used regularly I suppose.
Now the family were so convinced that JB was the killer that they went to see Taff and Stan on 9th Aug too,they spoke again about the absense of the sights/silencer and proclaimed that there was no way that Sheila could have re-loaded the rifle after being told that 24 shots had been fired.
Taff and Stan went to see JB that same evening and asked about the sights/silencer and the extra five bullets on the kitchen worktop.

OK enough scene setting,point is that by 9th Aug JB must have been aware that there was great interest in the silencer by the police,even though he may not have been aware that it was the relatives who were fuelling the police interest in it.But one thing is certain,the police and all the relatives knew that there was a silencer and sights for the Anschutz rifle.
So,the first question is,where did everyone think the silencer and sights were located at this point?
Taff must have checked and  known that they were not crime scene exhibits surely? And what about the relatives,didn't they enquire of their whereabouts to Taff?
Next point,in the TV series,after the silencer had been found by the relatives and handed in,Taff says to Stan'you have to be joking!'.But why was Taff surprised that the relatives had found a silencer at the WHF? After all,Taff had been discussing the silencer with JB and the relatives for days,he knew of its existence for heavens sake,so why any surprise when it was found and handed in? And after all,the police didn't have any sights or silencers as exhibits up until then did they?
Well,as Erik has pointed out,there seems to be documentation showing that two silencers were examined,so the police may have indeed found a silencer on the day of the shooting.This would explain Taffs reaction when the relatives handed in a silencer,and if you think about it,it would explain why the police or relatives for that matter did not show any interest in the whereabouts of the sights/silencer in the days following the shooting even though there was an intense interest growing about their significance.
Anyway,some claim the relatives did not hand in a silencer until september,and indeed Anne Eaton was asked why she didn't mention Dave finding the silencer  in her 14th Aug statement by the city of London police investigation,or COLP for short.She certainly mentioned it in her statements after JB was arrested,but then again she mentioned many more things against JB that was not in her first statement.
But it is odd how everything apparently came together so quickly after the murders,Anne and Dave apparently found out about Junes bike by their aunt Connie Lugg the morning after the shooting and Anne went on a crusade to find it for some reason,eventually tying it to the crime.

Anyway,I think the relatives probably did find the silencer in the gun cupboard on 10th Aug,it would have been too risky to say they found it there if they didn't,they couldn't have known how thoroughly the police checked the cupboard,but they would have been aware that the silencer had not been taken as an exhibit and tested,therefore they could contaminate it in any way they saw fit ,IF they wanted to.
Another point,it would have been risky for the relatives to hand in a silencer on a later date in September after JB had been clearing out the house and having probably checked out the gun cupboard.
But there can be no doubt that the relatives did have the opportunity to contaminate the silencer,and why didn't they hand in the sights at the same time? How did they know that they hadn't been on for the shooting and sprayed by a mist of blood unseen by the naked eye?

Oh well,I dont suppose I have said much of any evidential value,however on the next post we will look at JBs reaction to the silencer.

Sorry to mislead,but it appears the TV show was fiction regarding Taff being handed the silencer,it was Bob Miller who took the silencer from Stan and sent it to Huntingdon for testing.Not sure when Taff found out about the relatives discovery.
Anyway,what Bob Miller says in an interview doesn't seem right,he more or less says that the police didn't know there was a silencer for the Anschutz until it was found,yet we know the silencer was well discussed between JB,the police and the relatives days before it was found in the gun cupboard.

It just doesn't make much sense.As soon as the police were aware that there was a silencer and sights for the murder weapon why didn't they just ask JB where they would be in the White House and have the SOCO team retrieve them as crime scene exhibits?
OK,if Bamber had tried to hide the existence of the silencer from the police,but he didn't,he even spoke about it in front of AE while giving his statement,then AP got involved saying it was not the done thing to rempve sights once they are fitted.Yet when the silencer was 'found' as it were by the relatives,it seems this was a big surprise.But if the police didn't have the sights and silencer in their possesion,just where did they think they were? Of course they had to be somewhere at WHF for heavens sake.
One tv programme said the 'FIND' turned the case upside down,yet EVERYONE involved knew a silencer existed by then.
So does this suggest the police had already seized a silencer on the morning of the shooting? If not,why didn't they just go to the White House and pick it up once they knew of its existence? Seems to me  the only way to make sense of what the statements say is to assume the police already had a silencer before the relatives found one.

So,let us see what happened with Jeremy Bamber concerning the silencer.
Now,I have tried to argue that the police may have had a silencer in their possession before the relatives found the one in the gun cupboard,but is this logical? Wouldn't the police have told JB that they had taken sights and a silencer from the White House while questioning him? The thing is,we know for sure the police didn't tell JB about removing the sights/silencer or he would have had proof of two silencers after the relatives handed one in too.

And Bamber has never questioned the fact that the relatives found a silencer in the gun cupboard,this can only mean that either Bamber put the silencer back in the cupboard after the murders or he had no idea where Nevill put it after removing it from the Anschutz and therefore could not challenge what the relatives claimed about where they found it.After all,where else would you put a silencer if not in a gun cupboard?
So,as odd as it may seem,it looks like the police did not have a silencer in their possession before the relatives handed one in,or if they did it was not disclosed to JB.It would be interesting to hear what Jeremy Bamber has to say regarding his understanding of the whereabouts of the silencer and sights for the Anschutz in the first few days after the murders.
You would think if he was guilty and put the silencer back in the gun cupboard after the shooting,that he would be eager to find out if it had been seized by the police or not,yet we know he did not enquire about it.
But I still think its very odd that the police didn't go and get the sights and silencer from WHF once they knew of their existence,very odd!
Anyway,Erik has already pointed out the problems that JB would have faced putting the silencer back in the cupboard without leaving any blood evidence as well as squeezing past Nevills body and chairs.
And of course we have to ask again why JB let the relatives into WHF first,before he had found out if the silencer was still in the gun cupboard?And when he did go to the WHF on 12th Aug,which was incidentally the same day as Stan Jones picked up the silencer,Bamber was only interested in his Dads wallet.
Anyway,we still have to explain just how human blood got into the silencer,and as if that isn't hard enough we have to explain paint on it as well as scratches,so there can only really be two possibilities,either Bamber is guilty or the silencer was deliberatelly contaminated.

So,this is when you have to weigh up Bambers actions post murders and decide if they point to guilt or innocence.
Now personally,for me,it is what JB didn't know about the crime scene that makes me doubt his guilt.
I mean, if Bamber is guilty he knew exactly what happened in WHF on the night of the murders and how he staged things.HE,must have placed the Bible beside Sheila and opened it at a certain page,he may also have placed a suicide note inside it as an alibi,yet when he was told before the trial that there was no photos of the bible and that it had been destroyed he made no song and dance about this.Now this for me could mean that Bamber simply did not know the significance of the Bible or its contents.His alibi apparently up in smoke,yet no record of him making a fuss about this.

Next we have two overlapping issues involving Philip Boyce,firstly Boyce trying to prove that the rifle minus silencer made the marks to Nevills back,and then recently trying to prove that the Aga handles actually made the burns instead.Now,lets say Bamber is guilty,then it follows that he must know what made the marks to Nevills back.So if it is proven that the Aga made the marks,why did Bamber waste time and money trying to prove the rifle made them? Surely a pointless hiding to nothing?
On the other hand,if he had pointed out that the Aga might be responsible and got confirmation of this before his trial,he could have used this to his advantage.
Besides,I find it hard to fit the Aga burns into a guilty Bamber scenario anyway,and if they are accepted definately work in JBs favour in my opinion no matter how you look at it.Either Nevill lay beside the Aga for a considerable amount of time as the burns formed before getting up and being killed on the scuttle,which must point to Sheila as the killer,or Nevill died against the Aga and the police moved him to the scuttle. Now,the fact that Bamber did not point out that the police moved Nevill by proving that the Aga made the burns must obviously point to his innocence too.

So,for me,as I have said many times,Bambers obvious ignorance of what took place on the night of the murders by not using certain things to his advantage,for me points to innocence.And if this is the case then it follows that the silencer evidence must have been fabricated.
Oh well,we will just have to wait and see what the CCRC makes of the current submission.

Of course,there is the possibility that Sheila DID attach the silencer before the shooting,also hoping for a silent massacre,before returning it mid way through the shooting to the gun cupboard.This may not be as far fetched as we think now that the Aga burns have been introduced.
I will try and come up with a reasonably plausible scenario to suit this.

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 13, 2023, 11:28:06 PMOf course,there is the possibility that Sheila DID attach the silencer before the shooting,also hoping for a silent massacre,before returning it mid way through the shooting to the gun cupboard.This may not be as far fetched as we think now that the Aga burns have been introduced.
I will try and come up with a reasonably plausible scenario to suit this.

The silencer from a human ears point of view makes little difference when using low velocity ammunition Leslie.

OK,we will look at a possible scenario that has Sheila using the silencer and then returning it to the gun cupboard.Bear in mind that we will be assuming that Philip Boyce is correct about the Aga burning Nevills back.So if you agree with Boyce,please read on.

Right,here we go.
Nevill has put the rifle and magazine back in the gun cupboard after JB left for home.Sheila goes down stairs and gets the rifle,silencer, and magazine after everyone is in bed,she also takes five bullets from the gun cupboard thinking one bullet will be enough for each victim including herself.She goes through to the kitchen to load the magazine but realizes it is already fully loaded,she notices the box of ammo on the worktop that JB left so puts the five bullets she has taken from the den down beside them.Hence five extra bullets.
Nevill has heard Sheila and goes down to the kitchen to investigate,whatever is said,Sheila eventually hits Nevill over the head with the rifle and sends him to the floor in front of the Aga,he tries to get up but Sheila hits him again,breaking the lamp shade.Sheila is round by the cooker by this time and raises the rifle once more,the end of the silencer hits the underside of the mantel shelf which deflects the rifle causing the stock to hit the top of the cooker,the stock is split and a piece splinters off with the force.

Nevill lies motionless with his back against the Aga so Sheila stops the beating and heads off up stairs.
Now you may be thinking,why didn't Sheila just shoot Nevill? Well who knows,we know she was close to her dad and may have just hesitated and bashed him instead,or the safety catch may have been on at that time.
No matter what,we know that Nevill must have been alive while he lay against the Aga because he got up again and was shot on the chair/scuttle,So he couldn't have been shot at that time as he only received the four FATAL head shots in the kitchen,no others.

So,Sheila proceeds up stairs and shoots June in her bed,but finds out that shots to the body dont kill her,in fact June manages to get out of bed and attack Sheila.They struggle for the rifle as they go round about the bed and back,both receiving cuts and bruises,possibly sheila had a nose bleed.Some of Sheilas blood may have got into the silencer at this time.Anyway,Sheila manages to push an exhausted badly wounded June to the floor and realizes that the only way to kill her is with a shot to the head.
Sheila re-loads and the twins are dispatched next only receiving head shots,Sheila has learned her lesson,only head shots will do.Besides,she doesn't want the boys to suffer or maybe run away if they are only wounded.

Sheila re-loads the rifle a second time in the kitchen,and it may have been at this time that she unscrewed the silencer and put it back in the gun cupboard.Why you may ask? Well everyone was incapacitated by that stage and besides it made little difference to the sound of the shots anyway,as she would have found out.And of course Sheila would have realized by then that the only way to kill herself with the rifle was through the mouth or under the chin and no doubt worked out it would be easier to achieve this without the silencer attached.There is no reason to assume that Sheila was sat down in the bedroom about to shoot herself before she realized the gun was too long with the silencer on it,no reason at all.

So,for whatever reason Sheila removes the silencer and puts it back in the gun cupboard,by this time she has the cut between her thumb and forefinger ,the cut made by the rifle mechanism that Bill Robertson pointed out.If Sheila unscrewed the silencer from the top,this could also have been when her blood got into the silencer and smudged the outside of it,the cut would be directly in line with the end of the silencer as she unscrewed it like a bottle top.As for fingerprints,Sheila may have noticed the blood and gave the silencer a wipe as she put it back in its box.

At this stage,Sheila has a clear path from the kitchen to the den too,no chairs or bodies in the way till later.
Whatever else Sheila does while Nevill is unconcious is anyones guess,maybe she wrote the alleged suicide note which she placed in the Bible,washed her blood stained clothes and put on a clean nightie,and gave herself a wash and tidy up.

Anyway,Nevill slowly comes to,but is seriously hurt and can barely get to his feet.He stumbles over to the phone and sits down on a chair where it gradually comes back to him what happened,he makes a quick call to JB to summon help, cutting it short as he is eager to get up stairs and see what has taken place.
Nevill pushes himself to his feet and staggers along the hall towards the stair,he shouts out,hoping for a response and alerts Sheila who grabs the rifle and meets him as he turns the corner of the stair case.Two shots are fired into Nevills face as he comes into view around the corner of the stairway and he is forced to retreat,he stumbles and sways from side to side as he makes his way back to the kitchen.
Sheila manages to hit him two more times before he staggers into the kitchen and slumps into a chair all but dead.

Sheila enters the kitchen and aims the rifle at Nevills head but he manages to hold up his right arm to shield it.Sheila hits Nevill with the flat of the rifle barrel and pokes his arm,Nevill grabs the end of the rifle but Sheila pulls it away slashing his hand with the foreward sight and pulling off his wrist watch.
Nevill succumbs to his wounds and topples off the chair landing on the back of it with his head in the coal scuttle.Sheila is now free to put four more shots into Nevills head who may already have been dead,so very little blood spray may have occurred.

Sheila goes up stairs and gets hold of the Bible before shooting herself.

A few points.
People often say that Sheila had no time to wash and change then write a suicide note etc.,after Nevill was shot,but with this scenario all those things were done BEFORE Nevill was shot.All Sheila needed to do after Nevill was dead was go up stairs and shoot herself.So everything can be fitted in quite nicely IF you believe the Aga made the marks to Nevills back.

If Nevill wasn't still alive when he was lying against the Aga,how did he end uo on the chair scuttle?
Would the police have moved him? Why??
Sheila had all the time in the world to replace the silencer to the gun cupboard while Nevill was unconcious,and a clear path to do so.

If you accept this scenario,then no cover up or framing took place and no one deliberately contaminated the silencer.The police simply got things wrong believing that the only way Sheilas blood could have got into the silencer was from her shots to the head,but with the introduction of the Aga burns I believe Sheila may have had the opportunity to get her blood in the silencer and replace it after June and the twins were shot and Nevill lay unconcious.

One thing is for sure,Jeremy Bamber would not have left Nevill lying against the Aga while alive for any length of time.
Well thats about it,bye for now!

Quote from: Rob Garland on October 14, 2023, 09:31:38 PM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 13, 2023, 11:28:06 PMOf course,there is the possibility that Sheila DID attach the silencer before the shooting,also hoping for a silent massacre,before returning it mid way through the shooting to the gun cupboard.This may not be as far fetched as we think now that the Aga burns have been introduced.
I will try and come up with a reasonably plausible scenario to suit this.

The silencer from a human ears point of view makes little difference when using low velocity ammunition Leslie.

Yes,so I believe Rob.In fact I have just mentioned that fact in the scenario I have posted tonight.

Yes,I suppose the prosecution had to claim that Sheila had no other wounds appart from the two gunshot injuries to the neck so that they could claim that was the only source of her blood that night.

Now Bill thinks that Vanezis may have kept additional wounds to Sheila quiet,otherwise it would prove that she fought with the other victims,and no doubt this may be correct,but the same is true regarding Sheila returning the silencer to the gun cupboard.
What the police are claiming is that the ONLY time that Sheila bled on the night of the murders was from the two gun shot wounds to the neck/chin.Obviously if the prosecution conceded that Sheila had ANY other wounds which could have bled beforehand,then the defence could have claimed that some of that blood could have got into the silencer when Sheila was in a good enough condition to return it to the cupboard before shooting herself.

So,from a prosecution point of view the suggestion of any other cuts to Sheila on the night of the murders had to become taboo for a number of reasons.
Then with the backspatter phenomena claim introduced, it seemed the only  scenario  possible was that  Sheila was shot by Bamber who then put the silencer back in the cupboard unaware that Sheilas blood had been blown back into it..And that is what the public believe,that the case against Bamber is cast iron,Sheila simply couldn't shoot herself to death then replace the silencer in the gun cupboard,IMPOSSIBLE!

However,with the introduction of the Aga burns, it turns out that the shooting may have taken several hours to unfold,and that Sheila may have received cuts from the rifle mechanism or Junes finger nails amongst other possibilities,and that she had plenty of time to replace the silencer once everyone was dead or wounded.
So IS the case against Bamber cast iron,even if it WAS Sheilas blood in the silencer?

I suppose,like everyone else,the police simply didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle back in 1985,eg.,the Aga burns to Nevills back.

Therefore,the official police scenarioo sent to the Director of public prosecutions back then falls flat.

That is,of course,IF the CCRC accept Boyce's Aga evidence.You see,the prosecution case has Nevill being shot in the main bedroom before running down to the kitchen where he is then beaten before ending up on the chair/scuttle to receive his final four head shots.There is no way of fitting in Nevill lying with his back against the Aga for several minutes or maybe for an hour or more.

And when you think it through,just what else could have made the burns to Nevills back,and just as importantly,why?

Until Boyce suggested the Aga,the burns to Nevills back were never thought of as accidental,that possibility was never discussed by the police,they needed to claim they were caused because of a more sinister reason,eg,prodding with the rifle,heating the rifle to check for signs of life or heating the rifle or some other instrument to inflict torture,none of which make any sense whatsoever from a guilty Bamber.Just how would JB think that by burning Nevills back three times in any way would point to Sheila as the killer? And if Nevill was in any sort of state to be tortured then he was also in a state where he could fight back surely?

Checking for signs of life? Not with four bullets in Nevills brain surely.
No,you dont have to think about the burn marks to Nevill for long to work out that they most likely occurred accidentally.There are only two choices,accidental or intentionally by the killer,and for me there is no contest.
The size and spacings of the marks on Nevills back are also very similar,if not identical to those in Boyce's pig skin experiments,and the handles on the Aga are obviously at just the right height for Nevills spine to land against while lying on his side.

Time wise,the Aga burns are important too,or should I say the time that Nevill needed to lye against the Aga for,for the burns to form.Obviously the Aga handles weren't red hot and branded Nevill right away,yet they were quite deep,so must have formed slowly over a considerable amount of time.We dont know how long they took to form yet,but just how do you fit them into a JB scenario?
I suppose you could argue that JB battered Nevill unconcious by the Aga then went up stairs to kill everyone else first,but this would not have taken very long surely? Not long enough for the burns to form by the sound of things,and why wouldn't he shoot Nevill first?

Of course,it has to be pointed out that Boyce and the campaign team believe that Nevill was dead by the time he was lying against the Aga,and that the police moved him upon entry.Just how this helps prove Bamber is innocent I am not sure? Surely their claim means that JB could have chased Nevill to the kitchen and killed him right away leaving him against the Aga, before leaving the house soon after?I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve with this claim?

Oh well,we'll soon find out what the CCRC makes of it all I suppose.

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 18, 2023, 10:17:35 PMI suppose,like everyone else,the police simply didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle back in 1985,eg.,the Aga burns to Nevills back.

Therefore,the official police scenarioo sent to the Director of public prosecutions back then falls flat.

That is,of course,IF the CCRC accept Boyce's Aga evidence.You see,the prosecution case has Nevill being shot in the main bedroom before running down to the kitchen where he is then beaten before ending up on the chair/scuttle to receive his final four head shots.There is no way of fitting in Nevill lying with his back against the Aga for several minutes or maybe for an hour or more.

And when you think it through,just what else could have made the burns to Nevills back,and just as importantly,why?

Until Boyce suggested the Aga,the burns to Nevills back were never thought of as accidental,that possibility was never discussed by the police,they needed to claim they were caused because of a more sinister reason,eg,prodding with the rifle,heating the rifle to check for signs of life or heating the rifle or some other instrument to inflict torture,none of which make any sense whatsoever from a guilty Bamber.Just how would JB think that by burning Nevills back three times in any way would point to Sheila as the killer? And if Nevill was in any sort of state to be tortured then he was also in a state where he could fight back surely?

Checking for signs of life? Not with four bullets in Nevills brain surely.
No,you dont have to think about the burn marks to Nevill for long to work out that they most likely occurred accidentally.There are only two choices,accidental or intentionally by the killer,and for me there is no contest.
The size and spacings of the marks on Nevills back are also very similar,if not identical to those in Boyce's pig skin experiments,and the handles on the Aga are obviously at just the right height for Nevills spine to land against while lying on his side.

Time wise,the Aga burns are important too,or should I say the time that Nevill needed to lye against the Aga for,for the burns to form.Obviously the Aga handles weren't red hot and branded Nevill right away,yet they were quite deep,so must have formed slowly over a considerable amount of time.We dont know how long they took to form yet,but just how do you fit them into a JB scenario?
I suppose you could argue that JB battered Nevill unconcious by the Aga then went up stairs to kill everyone else first,but this would not have taken very long surely? Not long enough for the burns to form by the sound of things,and why wouldn't he shoot Nevill first?

Of course,it has to be pointed out that Boyce and the campaign team believe that Nevill was dead by the time he was lying against the Aga,and that the police moved him upon entry.Just how this helps prove Bamber is innocent I am not sure? Surely their claim means that JB could have chased Nevill to the kitchen and killed him right away leaving him against the Aga, before leaving the house soon after?I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve with this claim?

Oh well,we'll soon find out what the CCRC makes of it all I suppose.

The burns or marks to Nevil are a interesting part of what happened that night Leslie, if the Aga did indeed cause the burns then the main aspect to me is that the burns had to have taken several hours to occur, as the temperature would not be that hot?

This means that the events played out over quite a considerable time as I don't believe the police would have moved Nevil from the floor to the chair? If the police did move Nevil it was because they dislodged him when they entered the kitchen and propped him back again?

If Bamber is the shooter it would be a quick in and out, if Nevil is injured by the Aga JB would simply leave him their and just finish him off.

So to me if the Aga caused the burns this points to Sheila?

Quote from: Rob Garland on October 19, 2023, 07:21:59 AM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 18, 2023, 10:17:35 PMI suppose,like everyone else,the police simply didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle back in 1985,eg.,the Aga burns to Nevills back.

Therefore,the official police scenarioo sent to the Director of public prosecutions back then falls flat.

That is,of course,IF the CCRC accept Boyce's Aga evidence.You see,the prosecution case has Nevill being shot in the main bedroom before running down to the kitchen where he is then beaten before ending up on the chair/scuttle to receive his final four head shots.There is no way of fitting in Nevill lying with his back against the Aga for several minutes or maybe for an hour or more.

And when you think it through,just what else could have made the burns to Nevills back,and just as importantly,why?

Until Boyce suggested the Aga,the burns to Nevills back were never thought of as accidental,that possibility was never discussed by the police,they needed to claim they were caused because of a more sinister reason,eg,prodding with the rifle,heating the rifle to check for signs of life or heating the rifle or some other instrument to inflict torture,none of which make any sense whatsoever from a guilty Bamber.Just how would JB think that by burning Nevills back three times in any way would point to Sheila as the killer? And if Nevill was in any sort of state to be tortured then he was also in a state where he could fight back surely?

Checking for signs of life? Not with four bullets in Nevills brain surely.
No,you dont have to think about the burn marks to Nevill for long to work out that they most likely occurred accidentally.There are only two choices,accidental or intentionally by the killer,and for me there is no contest.
The size and spacings of the marks on Nevills back are also very similar,if not identical to those in Boyce's pig skin experiments,and the handles on the Aga are obviously at just the right height for Nevills spine to land against while lying on his side.

Time wise,the Aga burns are important too,or should I say the time that Nevill needed to lye against the Aga for,for the burns to form.Obviously the Aga handles weren't red hot and branded Nevill right away,yet they were quite deep,so must have formed slowly over a considerable amount of time.We dont know how long they took to form yet,but just how do you fit them into a JB scenario?
I suppose you could argue that JB battered Nevill unconcious by the Aga then went up stairs to kill everyone else first,but this would not have taken very long surely? Not long enough for the burns to form by the sound of things,and why wouldn't he shoot Nevill first?

Of course,it has to be pointed out that Boyce and the campaign team believe that Nevill was dead by the time he was lying against the Aga,and that the police moved him upon entry.Just how this helps prove Bamber is innocent I am not sure? Surely their claim means that JB could have chased Nevill to the kitchen and killed him right away leaving him against the Aga, before leaving the house soon after?I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve with this claim?

Oh well,we'll soon find out what the CCRC makes of it all I suppose.

The burns or marks to Nevil are a interesting part of what happened that night Leslie, if the Aga did indeed cause the burns then the main aspect to me is that the burns had to have taken several hours to occur, as the temperature would not be that hot?

This means that the events played out over quite a considerable time as I don't believe the police would have moved Nevil from the floor to the chair? If the police did move Nevil it was because they dislodged him when they entered the kitchen and propped him back again?

If Bamber is the shooter it would be a quick in and out, if Nevil is injured by the Aga JB would simply leave him their and just finish him off.

So to me if the Aga caused the burns this points to Sheila?

Yes,I agree with everything you say Rob,it is quite possible that the TFG dislodged Nevill upon entry,he may even have landed more or less where we see him,there may have been very little re-staging.

I just dont see why the police would have moved Nevill from the AGA to the chair/scuttle upon entry and I cant see what Boyce and the CT hope to achieve trying to prove this.

And think about this Rob,how could the killer return the silencer after the shooting if Nevill was sitting on a chair blocking  off the kitchen door completely? Obviously the silencer had to be back in the cupboard by then.
And Bamber could not have got to the den any other way,the key was in the lock on the inside of the back door wasn't it?
And lets just suppose that Nevill did topple into that possition on the scuttle as the TFG entered,in that case they did not lie in their statements,what they would have indeed seen as they entered the kitchen was Nevill sitting with his head in the scuttle,perfectly true!

So if Nevill was blocking the kitchen door,just when was the silencer returned to the den?
Well if Sheila was last to be killed,doesn't this rule Bamber out as the shooter? How could he replace the silencer after shooting Sheila if Nevill was blocking the door?
However,we have spoken of the possibility of Sheila replacing the silencer while Nevill is against the Aga,hence a clear path to the den at that time.
You could argue that JB shot Sheila first then returned the silencer,but why would he use the silencer on Sheila only? And besides,how could the silencer scratch the mantel shelf in the struggle with Nevill if it was back in the den by then?
Anyway,as you say,the Aga burns surely work in Bambers favour if accepted Rob.However,the CT trying to claim that the police moved Nevill from in front of the Aga to the chair/scuttle spoils JBs chances if you ask me ,what do you think their plan of action is?

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 19, 2023, 03:07:55 PM

Quote from: Rob Garland on October 19, 2023, 07:21:59 AM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 18, 2023, 10:17:35 PMI suppose,like everyone else,the police simply didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle back in 1985,eg.,the Aga burns to Nevills back.

Therefore,the official police scenarioo sent to the Director of public prosecutions back then falls flat.

That is,of course,IF the CCRC accept Boyce's Aga evidence.You see,the prosecution case has Nevill being shot in the main bedroom before running down to the kitchen where he is then beaten before ending up on the chair/scuttle to receive his final four head shots.There is no way of fitting in Nevill lying with his back against the Aga for several minutes or maybe for an hour or more.

And when you think it through,just what else could have made the burns to Nevills back,and just as importantly,why?

Until Boyce suggested the Aga,the burns to Nevills back were never thought of as accidental,that possibility was never discussed by the police,they needed to claim they were caused because of a more sinister reason,eg,prodding with the rifle,heating the rifle to check for signs of life or heating the rifle or some other instrument to inflict torture,none of which make any sense whatsoever from a guilty Bamber.Just how would JB think that by burning Nevills back three times in any way would point to Sheila as the killer? And if Nevill was in any sort of state to be tortured then he was also in a state where he could fight back surely?

Checking for signs of life? Not with four bullets in Nevills brain surely.
No,you dont have to think about the burn marks to Nevill for long to work out that they most likely occurred accidentally.There are only two choices,accidental or intentionally by the killer,and for me there is no contest.
The size and spacings of the marks on Nevills back are also very similar,if not identical to those in Boyce's pig skin experiments,and the handles on the Aga are obviously at just the right height for Nevills spine to land against while lying on his side.

Time wise,the Aga burns are important too,or should I say the time that Nevill needed to lye against the Aga for,for the burns to form.Obviously the Aga handles weren't red hot and branded Nevill right away,yet they were quite deep,so must have formed slowly over a considerable amount of time.We dont know how long they took to form yet,but just how do you fit them into a JB scenario?
I suppose you could argue that JB battered Nevill unconcious by the Aga then went up stairs to kill everyone else first,but this would not have taken very long surely? Not long enough for the burns to form by the sound of things,and why wouldn't he shoot Nevill first?

Of course,it has to be pointed out that Boyce and the campaign team believe that Nevill was dead by the time he was lying against the Aga,and that the police moved him upon entry.Just how this helps prove Bamber is innocent I am not sure? Surely their claim means that JB could have chased Nevill to the kitchen and killed him right away leaving him against the Aga, before leaving the house soon after?I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve with this claim?

Oh well,we'll soon find out what the CCRC makes of it all I suppose.

The burns or marks to Nevil are a interesting part of what happened that night Leslie, if the Aga did indeed cause the burns then the main aspect to me is that the burns had to have taken several hours to occur, as the temperature would not be that hot?

This means that the events played out over quite a considerable time as I don't believe the police would have moved Nevil from the floor to the chair? If the police did move Nevil it was because they dislodged him when they entered the kitchen and propped him back again?

If Bamber is the shooter it would be a quick in and out, if Nevil is injured by the Aga JB would simply leave him their and just finish him off.

So to me if the Aga caused the burns this points to Sheila?

Yes,I agree with everything you say Rob,it is quite possible that the TFG dislodged Nevill upon entry,he may even have landed more or less where we see him,there may have been very little re-staging.

I just dont see why the police would have moved Nevill from the AGA to the chair/scuttle upon entry and I cant see what Boyce and the CT hope to achieve trying to prove this.

And think about this Rob,how could the killer return the silencer after the shooting if Nevill was sitting on a chair blocking  off the kitchen door completely? Obviously the silencer had to be back in the cupboard by then.
And Bamber could not have got to the den any other way,the key was in the lock on the inside of the back door wasn't it?
And lets just suppose that Nevill did topple into that possition on the scuttle as the TFG entered,in that case they did not lie in their statements,what they would have indeed seen as they entered the kitchen was Nevill sitting with his head in the scuttle,perfectly true!

So if Nevill was blocking the kitchen door,just when was the silencer returned to the den?
Well if Sheila was last to be killed,doesn't this rule Bamber out as the shooter? How could he replace the silencer after shooting Sheila if Nevill was blocking the door?
However,we have spoken of the possibility of Sheila replacing the silencer while Nevill is against the Aga,hence a clear path to the den at that time.
You could argue that JB shot Sheila first then returned the silencer,but why would he use the silencer on Sheila only? And besides,how could the silencer scratch the mantel shelf in the struggle with Nevill if it was back in the den by then?
Anyway,as you say,the Aga burns surely work in Bambers favour if accepted Rob.However,the CT trying to claim that the police moved Nevill from in front of the Aga to the chair/scuttle spoils JBs chances if you ask me ,what do you think their plan of action is?

I think the problem the CT have is fitting everything into a plausible timeline Leslie.

If the Aga caused the burns to Nevil was the phone call to JB before or after? I think the phone call must have come first, Nevil then somehow ends up lying injured against the Aga and if the burns take two hours to form that would mean the police are at the scene with Nevil still alive.

This is why the CT have the police moving Nevil but why?

It is possible Sheila hit Nevil with the rifle knocking him out and he landed against the Aga, before any shots had been fired. Time is not a problem in this scenario then when he comes to he calls JB. If shots have been fired I think Nevil would call 999 not JB?

Quote from: Rob Garland on October 20, 2023, 07:48:51 AM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 19, 2023, 03:07:55 PM

Quote from: Rob Garland on October 19, 2023, 07:21:59 AM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 18, 2023, 10:17:35 PMI suppose,like everyone else,the police simply didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle back in 1985,eg.,the Aga burns to Nevills back.

Therefore,the official police scenarioo sent to the Director of public prosecutions back then falls flat.

That is,of course,IF the CCRC accept Boyce's Aga evidence.You see,the prosecution case has Nevill being shot in the main bedroom before running down to the kitchen where he is then beaten before ending up on the chair/scuttle to receive his final four head shots.There is no way of fitting in Nevill lying with his back against the Aga for several minutes or maybe for an hour or more.

And when you think it through,just what else could have made the burns to Nevills back,and just as importantly,why?

Until Boyce suggested the Aga,the burns to Nevills back were never thought of as accidental,that possibility was never discussed by the police,they needed to claim they were caused because of a more sinister reason,eg,prodding with the rifle,heating the rifle to check for signs of life or heating the rifle or some other instrument to inflict torture,none of which make any sense whatsoever from a guilty Bamber.Just how would JB think that by burning Nevills back three times in any way would point to Sheila as the killer? And if Nevill was in any sort of state to be tortured then he was also in a state where he could fight back surely?

Checking for signs of life? Not with four bullets in Nevills brain surely.
No,you dont have to think about the burn marks to Nevill for long to work out that they most likely occurred accidentally.There are only two choices,accidental or intentionally by the killer,and for me there is no contest.
The size and spacings of the marks on Nevills back are also very similar,if not identical to those in Boyce's pig skin experiments,and the handles on the Aga are obviously at just the right height for Nevills spine to land against while lying on his side.

Time wise,the Aga burns are important too,or should I say the time that Nevill needed to lye against the Aga for,for the burns to form.Obviously the Aga handles weren't red hot and branded Nevill right away,yet they were quite deep,so must have formed slowly over a considerable amount of time.We dont know how long they took to form yet,but just how do you fit them into a JB scenario?
I suppose you could argue that JB battered Nevill unconcious by the Aga then went up stairs to kill everyone else first,but this would not have taken very long surely? Not long enough for the burns to form by the sound of things,and why wouldn't he shoot Nevill first?

Of course,it has to be pointed out that Boyce and the campaign team believe that Nevill was dead by the time he was lying against the Aga,and that the police moved him upon entry.Just how this helps prove Bamber is innocent I am not sure? Surely their claim means that JB could have chased Nevill to the kitchen and killed him right away leaving him against the Aga, before leaving the house soon after?I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve with this claim?

Oh well,we'll soon find out what the CCRC makes of it all I suppose.

The burns or marks to Nevil are a interesting part of what happened that night Leslie, if the Aga did indeed cause the burns then the main aspect to me is that the burns had to have taken several hours to occur, as the temperature would not be that hot?

This means that the events played out over quite a considerable time as I don't believe the police would have moved Nevil from the floor to the chair? If the police did move Nevil it was because they dislodged him when they entered the kitchen and propped him back again?

If Bamber is the shooter it would be a quick in and out, if Nevil is injured by the Aga JB would simply leave him their and just finish him off.

So to me if the Aga caused the burns this points to Sheila?

Yes,I agree with everything you say Rob,it is quite possible that the TFG dislodged Nevill upon entry,he may even have landed more or less where we see him,there may have been very little re-staging.

I just dont see why the police would have moved Nevill from the AGA to the chair/scuttle upon entry and I cant see what Boyce and the CT hope to achieve trying to prove this.

And think about this Rob,how could the killer return the silencer after the shooting if Nevill was sitting on a chair blocking  off the kitchen door completely? Obviously the silencer had to be back in the cupboard by then.
And Bamber could not have got to the den any other way,the key was in the lock on the inside of the back door wasn't it?
And lets just suppose that Nevill did topple into that possition on the scuttle as the TFG entered,in that case they did not lie in their statements,what they would have indeed seen as they entered the kitchen was Nevill sitting with his head in the scuttle,perfectly true!

So if Nevill was blocking the kitchen door,just when was the silencer returned to the den?
Well if Sheila was last to be killed,doesn't this rule Bamber out as the shooter? How could he replace the silencer after shooting Sheila if Nevill was blocking the door?
However,we have spoken of the possibility of Sheila replacing the silencer while Nevill is against the Aga,hence a clear path to the den at that time.
You could argue that JB shot Sheila first then returned the silencer,but why would he use the silencer on Sheila only? And besides,how could the silencer scratch the mantel shelf in the struggle with Nevill if it was back in the den by then?
Anyway,as you say,the Aga burns surely work in Bambers favour if accepted Rob.However,the CT trying to claim that the police moved Nevill from in front of the Aga to the chair/scuttle spoils JBs chances if you ask me ,what do you think their plan of action is?

I think the problem the CT have is fitting everything into a plausible timeline Leslie.

If the Aga caused the burns to Nevil was the phone call to JB before or after? I think the phone call must have come first, Nevil then somehow ends up lying injured against the Aga and if the burns take two hours to form that would mean the police are at the scene with Nevil still alive.

This is why the CT have the police moving Nevil but why?

It is possible Sheila hit Nevil with the rifle knocking him out and he landed against the Aga, before any shots had been fired. Time is not a problem in this scenario then when he comes to he calls JB. If shots have been fired I think Nevil would call 999 not JB?

But the thing is Rob,Boyce and the CT are claiming that Nevill was dead when he was lying against the Aga.

If Boyce and the CT think that Nevill was already dead when he was lying against the Aga,when do they think he made the phone calls?
The CT think that Nevill made a call to the police as well as to Jeremy,this is part of the current submission to the CCRC.So when do they claim the calls were made?
Surely they will need a complete scenario to convince the CCRC and the rest of us of Bambers innocence?

I suppose,if the CT can prove that a call was made to the police by Nevill then that would be all that is needed to prove JBs innocence.And this is indeed one of the points submitted to the CCRC.

The thing is,if Nevill phoned the police at 3.25, was June and the boys dead by then?
If not,things must have moved fast before the police arrived.And why phone anyone if no one was injured at that point.? If they were dead,why didn't Nevill mention this to the police or JB?
Could they have been killed while Nevill was asleep down stairs? Surely not,wouldn't he have checked out what had happened when he woke up before phoning anyone?
And what about Nevill,was he uninjured when he made the calls to JB and the police?If so,we have to ask again,why was he phoning at all?
Now,Erik gave a scenario where things kick off in the kitchen between Nevill and Sheila, in which Nevill phones JB and Sheila runs up stairs and starts shooting.This is quite plausable,but there would have been no time for Nevill to call the police too before chasing after Sheila.
In all honesty,it is hard to come up with a scenario where Nevill gets a chance to call both JB and the police.
Yet,the CT claim that Nevill made a call to both JB and the police before being beaten and shot to death minutes later before falling against the Aga,then the police move Nevill to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
So when do the CT think Nevill was shot in the face and arm? Before the phone calls or after?
I simply cant work out a scenario that fits very well with Nevill calling the police then being moved by the TFG upon entry.
But I suppose, all that the CT need is proof of a call from Nevill,which they claim they have got.
So who knows,lets see what the CCRC conclude.

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 04, 2023, 11:59:36 PMThe thing is,if Nevill phoned the police at 3.25, was June and the boys dead by then?
If not,things must have moved fast before the police arrived.And why phone anyone if no one was injured at that point.? If they were dead,why didn't Nevill mention this to the police or JB?
Could they have been killed while Nevill was asleep down stairs? Surely not,wouldn't he have checked out what had happened when he woke up before phoning anyone?
And what about Nevill,was he uninjured when he made the calls to JB and the police?If so,we have to ask again,why was he phoning at all?
Now,Erik gave a scenario where things kick off in the kitchen between Nevill and Sheila, in which Nevill phones JB and Sheila runs up stairs and starts shooting.This is quite plausable,but there would have been no time for Nevill to call the police too before chasing after Sheila.
In all honesty,it is hard to come up with a scenario where Nevill gets a chance to call both JB and the police.
Yet,the CT claim that Nevill made a call to both JB and the police before being beaten and shot to death minutes later before falling against the Aga,then the police move Nevill to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
So when do the CT think Nevill was shot in the face and arm? Before the phone calls or after?
I simply cant work out a scenario that fits very well with Nevill calling the police then being moved by the TFG upon entry.
But I suppose, all that the CT need is proof of a call from Nevill,which they claim they have got.
So who knows,lets see what the CCRC conclude.

If there is proof of a call to the police from Nevil this virtually clears JB Leslie unless the prosecution claims the call was faked? Did the police hide the call out of honorable intentions?

It is difficult to fit the burns into a scenario if they take several hours to form, unless the police did actually move Nevil upon entry to the kitchen but why?

The only other option and to me the most likely is the altercation between Nevil and Sheila played out over a much longer time period, but if Nevil somehow ended up against the Aga for several hours I believe the call to JB has to be before any shots have been fired?

If the Aga is the cause of the burns to me this greatly helps JB, there is no way JB would be messing around for several hours he would just finish Nevil off where he lay.

Quote from: Rob Garland on November 05, 2023, 10:22:46 PM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 04, 2023, 11:59:36 PMThe thing is,if Nevill phoned the police at 3.25, was June and the boys dead by then?
If not,things must have moved fast before the police arrived.And why phone anyone if no one was injured at that point.? If they were dead,why didn't Nevill mention this to the police or JB?
Could they have been killed while Nevill was asleep down stairs? Surely not,wouldn't he have checked out what had happened when he woke up before phoning anyone?
And what about Nevill,was he uninjured when he made the calls to JB and the police?If so,we have to ask again,why was he phoning at all?
Now,Erik gave a scenario where things kick off in the kitchen between Nevill and Sheila, in which Nevill phones JB and Sheila runs up stairs and starts shooting.This is quite plausable,but there would have been no time for Nevill to call the police too before chasing after Sheila.
In all honesty,it is hard to come up with a scenario where Nevill gets a chance to call both JB and the police.
Yet,the CT claim that Nevill made a call to both JB and the police before being beaten and shot to death minutes later before falling against the Aga,then the police move Nevill to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
So when do the CT think Nevill was shot in the face and arm? Before the phone calls or after?
I simply cant work out a scenario that fits very well with Nevill calling the police then being moved by the TFG upon entry.
But I suppose, all that the CT need is proof of a call from Nevill,which they claim they have got.
So who knows,lets see what the CCRC conclude.

If there is proof of a call to the police from Nevil this virtually clears JB Leslie unless the prosecution claims the call was faked? Did the police hide the call out of honorable intentions?

It is difficult to fit the burns into a scenario if they take several hours to form, unless the police did actually move Nevil upon entry to the kitchen but why?

The only other option and to me the most likely is the altercation between Nevil and Sheila played out over a much longer time period, but if Nevil somehow ended up against the Aga for several hours I believe the call to JB has to be before any shots have been fired?

If the Aga is the cause of the burns to me this greatly helps JB, there is no way JB would be messing around for several hours he would just finish Nevil off where he lay.

There is quite a comprehensive discussion about Nevills phone call to the police in the official JB innocence campaign forum Rob.The CT claim that recordings of calls from both JB and Nevill to the police should still exist as copies were made and no record of their destruction has been found.They think the recordings may be held under PII.
The CT make quite a good argument about the two written logs as well Rob and firmly believe that Nevill phoned the police at 3.26 and JB phoned them at 3.36.
So,if we go by this,how do we fit a scenario around these times? What state was everyone in when Nevill called the police at 3.26?
 The thing is,the CT dont give a comprehensive scenario,so we dont know what had happened prior to Nevill calling the police at 3.26,only that he was consequently beaten and shot to death before falling against the Aga and there after moved to the chair/scuttle by the police.

So,what the CT need to make clear is,did all the victims die after Nevill pnoned the police or was June and the boys already dead? If so,why didn't Nevill mention this to JB or the police?
And as you say Rob,what reason did the police have for moving Nevill after entry.
You would think if Sheila didn't start shooting till after Nevill called the police,then he must have been the first to die before June and the boys were awake,otherwise everyone would have been running about the house and the boys could not have possibly died in their sleep.Nevill must have been despatched first before Sheila headed up stairs to attack an unsuspecting June and twins,who must have still been sleeping after Nevill was shot.
Trouble is,we are told Nevill was shot four times before ending up in the kitchen.
So Rob,obviously what we have to ask is,how did it all kick off and what made Nevill decide to call JB and the police,and more importantly,where was Sheila when he was making the calls? Just how can the CT explain this?
Or indeed how can any of us??
Well,if we are to go by the CT scenario, then it must have been obvious to Nevill that Sheila was having a psychotic episode and was very dangerous.But why not phone her doctors for help? Well,obviously Sheila must have been in possesion of the rifle and terrifying Nevill.

Could it have kicked off in Sheilas bedroom? Did Nevill find her there with the rifle? This would at least explain Nevill being shot from above in the arm and shoulder while running down stairs.But what about the face shots before reaching the kitchen? He couldn't make the calls could he? We're more or less back to the police scenario of Nevill being unable to make the calls.

It gets confusing.Maybe we should look at the wording of Nevills calls to JB and the police?
CRAZY and BERSERK! Now,both those words are quite powerful,you dont use them unless someone is completely out of control,especially BERSERK.So what was Sheila doing,or HAD done for Nevill to use those words?
Obviously she was carrying on like a lunatic when Nevill made the calls,but where was she? WHERE ON EARTH was Sheila when Nevill was on the phone?
He couldn't just leave her to run amok and attack June and the boys.
Did Nevill manage to shut Sheila in a room while he was on the phone? How else could he get any peace to make the calls?
Anyway Rob,if it did all kick off at 3.26 when Nevill phoned the police,Sheila didn't have much time to kill eveyone before the police arrived.
Oh well,that will do for now I suppose.

For what it's worth, Sheila's predictive notes only referred to her killing the boys and herself. In fact, she refers to June as someone needing support from Christine, Sheila's natural mother. So I don't think that she set out to kill her parents but something happened to cause a confrontation between Sheila and June. I believe that she killed the boys first and intended ending her own life. It's possible that Nevill was only aware that Sheila had the rifle, not that she had fired it. I think that the comments about Sheila going berserk or crazy came about because Nevill heard the fight between Sheila and June. Sheila killed June and came downstairs to the kitchen where she confronted Nevill. What exactly happened then, I don't know but I do think that Nevill received all his injuries in the kitchen.

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 06, 2023, 10:04:09 PM

Quote from: Rob Garland on November 05, 2023, 10:22:46 PM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 04, 2023, 11:59:36 PMThe thing is,if Nevill phoned the police at 3.25, was June and the boys dead by then?
If not,things must have moved fast before the police arrived.And why phone anyone if no one was injured at that point.? If they were dead,why didn't Nevill mention this to the police or JB?
Could they have been killed while Nevill was asleep down stairs? Surely not,wouldn't he have checked out what had happened when he woke up before phoning anyone?
And what about Nevill,was he uninjured when he made the calls to JB and the police?If so,we have to ask again,why was he phoning at all?
Now,Erik gave a scenario where things kick off in the kitchen between Nevill and Sheila, in which Nevill phones JB and Sheila runs up stairs and starts shooting.This is quite plausable,but there would have been no time for Nevill to call the police too before chasing after Sheila.
In all honesty,it is hard to come up with a scenario where Nevill gets a chance to call both JB and the police.
Yet,the CT claim that Nevill made a call to both JB and the police before being beaten and shot to death minutes later before falling against the Aga,then the police move Nevill to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
So when do the CT think Nevill was shot in the face and arm? Before the phone calls or after?
I simply cant work out a scenario that fits very well with Nevill calling the police then being moved by the TFG upon entry.
But I suppose, all that the CT need is proof of a call from Nevill,which they claim they have got.
So who knows,lets see what the CCRC conclude.

If there is proof of a call to the police from Nevil this virtually clears JB Leslie unless the prosecution claims the call was faked? Did the police hide the call out of honorable intentions?

It is difficult to fit the burns into a scenario if they take several hours to form, unless the police did actually move Nevil upon entry to the kitchen but why?

The only other option and to me the most likely is the altercation between Nevil and Sheila played out over a much longer time period, but if Nevil somehow ended up against the Aga for several hours I believe the call to JB has to be before any shots have been fired?

If the Aga is the cause of the burns to me this greatly helps JB, there is no way JB would be messing around for several hours he would just finish Nevil off where he lay.

There is quite a comprehensive discussion about Nevills phone call to the police in the official JB innocence campaign forum Rob.The CT claim that recordings of calls from both JB and Nevill to the police should still exist as copies were made and no record of their destruction has been found.They think the recordings may be held under PII.
The CT make quite a good argument about the two written logs as well Rob and firmly believe that Nevill phoned the police at 3.26 and JB phoned them at 3.36.
So,if we go by this,how do we fit a scenario around these times? What state was everyone in when Nevill called the police at 3.26?
 The thing is,the CT dont give a comprehensive scenario,so we dont know what had happened prior to Nevill calling the police at 3.26,only that he was consequently beaten and shot to death before falling against the Aga and there after moved to the chair/scuttle by the police.

So,what the CT need to make clear is,did all the victims die after Nevill pnoned the police or was June and the boys already dead? If so,why didn't Nevill mention this to JB or the police?
And as you say Rob,what reason did the police have for moving Nevill after entry.
You would think if Sheila didn't start shooting till after Nevill called the police,then he must have been the first to die before June and the boys were awake,otherwise everyone would have been running about the house and the boys could not have possibly died in their sleep.Nevill must have been despatched first before Sheila headed up stairs to attack an unsuspecting June and twins,who must have still been sleeping after Nevill was shot.
Trouble is,we are told Nevill was shot four times before ending up in the kitchen.
So Rob,obviously what we have to ask is,how did it all kick off and what made Nevill decide to call JB and the police,and more importantly,where was Sheila when he was making the calls? Just how can the CT explain this?
Or indeed how can any of us??
Well,if we are to go by the CT scenario, then it must have been obvious to Nevill that Sheila was having a psychotic episode and was very dangerous.But why not phone her doctors for help? Well,obviously Sheila must have been in possesion of the rifle and terrifying Nevill.

Could it have kicked off in Sheilas bedroom? Did Nevill find her there with the rifle? This would at least explain Nevill being shot from above in the arm and shoulder while running down stairs.But what about the face shots before reaching the kitchen? He couldn't make the calls could he? We're more or less back to the police scenario of Nevill being unable to make the calls.

It gets confusing.Maybe we should look at the wording of Nevills calls to JB and the police?
CRAZY and BERSERK! Now,both those words are quite powerful,you dont use them unless someone is completely out of control,especially BERSERK.So what was Sheila doing,or HAD done for Nevill to use those words?
Obviously she was carrying on like a lunatic when Nevill made the calls,but where was she? WHERE ON EARTH was Sheila when Nevill was on the phone?
He couldn't just leave her to run amok and attack June and the boys.
Did Nevill manage to shut Sheila in a room while he was on the phone? How else could he get any peace to make the calls?
Anyway Rob,if it did all kick off at 3.26 when Nevill phoned the police,Sheila didn't have much time to kill eveyone before the police arrived.
Oh well,that will do for now I suppose.

I have often thought that the boys were shot first Leslie in one go, not one shot each then more shots latter. This is also born out by the pattern of the shots. The shots are also in multiples of eight or thereabouts, I believe Sheila would only be able to load around 8 bullets into the magazine as loading the final few bullets gets stiff and hard to insert.

So if the boys are shot first Sheila then reloads which would leave her with around 8 bullets. It's possible the boys were already shot without Nevil knowing when he phones JB? When Nevil calls either the police or JB he has to believe no shots have been fired it's just Sheila going mad waving a gun around?

If JB really planned all this surely he does not use two reloads? Would he not use say three shots on the boys, two or three on Nevil maybe 5 on June leaving Sheila needing to only load one or two bullets to shoot herself which would be easy and no one would have questioned.

Regarding the Aga I don't believe the police would move Nevil absolutely no reason to, if the Aga caused the burns then to me the tragedy kicked off much earlier maybe around 1.00am?

The wounds to Nevil are classic with attacks involving people with PS having a meltdown.

Quote from: Bill Robertson on November 07, 2023, 02:40:24 PMFor what it's worth, Sheila's predictive notes only referred to her killing the boys and herself. In fact, she refers to June as someone needing support from Christine, Sheila's natural mother. So I don't think that she set out to kill her parents but something happened to cause a confrontation between Sheila and June. I believe that she killed the boys first and intended ending her own life. It's possible that Nevill was only aware that Sheila had the rifle, not that she had fired it. I think that the comments about Sheila going berserk or crazy came about because Nevill heard the fight between Sheila and June. Sheila killed June and came downstairs to the kitchen where she confronted Nevill. What exactly happened then, I don't know but I do think that Nevill received all his injuries in the kitchen.

Thanks Bill,I forgot what was written in the letters,will think about your scenario.
What is your view about the police moving Nevill onto the scuttle?

Quote from: Rob Garland on November 07, 2023, 06:30:07 PM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 06, 2023, 10:04:09 PM

Quote from: Rob Garland on November 05, 2023, 10:22:46 PM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 04, 2023, 11:59:36 PMThe thing is,if Nevill phoned the police at 3.25, was June and the boys dead by then?
If not,things must have moved fast before the police arrived.And why phone anyone if no one was injured at that point.? If they were dead,why didn't Nevill mention this to the police or JB?
Could they have been killed while Nevill was asleep down stairs? Surely not,wouldn't he have checked out what had happened when he woke up before phoning anyone?
And what about Nevill,was he uninjured when he made the calls to JB and the police?If so,we have to ask again,why was he phoning at all?
Now,Erik gave a scenario where things kick off in the kitchen between Nevill and Sheila, in which Nevill phones JB and Sheila runs up stairs and starts shooting.This is quite plausable,but there would have been no time for Nevill to call the police too before chasing after Sheila.
In all honesty,it is hard to come up with a scenario where Nevill gets a chance to call both JB and the police.
Yet,the CT claim that Nevill made a call to both JB and the police before being beaten and shot to death minutes later before falling against the Aga,then the police move Nevill to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
So when do the CT think Nevill was shot in the face and arm? Before the phone calls or after?
I simply cant work out a scenario that fits very well with Nevill calling the police then being moved by the TFG upon entry.
But I suppose, all that the CT need is proof of a call from Nevill,which they claim they have got.
So who knows,lets see what the CCRC conclude.

If there is proof of a call to the police from Nevil this virtually clears JB Leslie unless the prosecution claims the call was faked? Did the police hide the call out of honorable intentions?

It is difficult to fit the burns into a scenario if they take several hours to form, unless the police did actually move Nevil upon entry to the kitchen but why?

The only other option and to me the most likely is the altercation between Nevil and Sheila played out over a much longer time period, but if Nevil somehow ended up against the Aga for several hours I believe the call to JB has to be before any shots have been fired?

If the Aga is the cause of the burns to me this greatly helps JB, there is no way JB would be messing around for several hours he would just finish Nevil off where he lay.

There is quite a comprehensive discussion about Nevills phone call to the police in the official JB innocence campaign forum Rob.The CT claim that recordings of calls from both JB and Nevill to the police should still exist as copies were made and no record of their destruction has been found.They think the recordings may be held under PII.
The CT make quite a good argument about the two written logs as well Rob and firmly believe that Nevill phoned the police at 3.26 and JB phoned them at 3.36.
So,if we go by this,how do we fit a scenario around these times? What state was everyone in when Nevill called the police at 3.26?
 The thing is,the CT dont give a comprehensive scenario,so we dont know what had happened prior to Nevill calling the police at 3.26,only that he was consequently beaten and shot to death before falling against the Aga and there after moved to the chair/scuttle by the police.

So,what the CT need to make clear is,did all the victims die after Nevill pnoned the police or was June and the boys already dead? If so,why didn't Nevill mention this to JB or the police?
And as you say Rob,what reason did the police have for moving Nevill after entry.
You would think if Sheila didn't start shooting till after Nevill called the police,then he must have been the first to die before June and the boys were awake,otherwise everyone would have been running about the house and the boys could not have possibly died in their sleep.Nevill must have been despatched first before Sheila headed up stairs to attack an unsuspecting June and twins,who must have still been sleeping after Nevill was shot.
Trouble is,we are told Nevill was shot four times before ending up in the kitchen.
So Rob,obviously what we have to ask is,how did it all kick off and what made Nevill decide to call JB and the police,and more importantly,where was Sheila when he was making the calls? Just how can the CT explain this?
Or indeed how can any of us??
Well,if we are to go by the CT scenario, then it must have been obvious to Nevill that Sheila was having a psychotic episode and was very dangerous.But why not phone her doctors for help? Well,obviously Sheila must have been in possesion of the rifle and terrifying Nevill.

Could it have kicked off in Sheilas bedroom? Did Nevill find her there with the rifle? This would at least explain Nevill being shot from above in the arm and shoulder while running down stairs.But what about the face shots before reaching the kitchen? He couldn't make the calls could he? We're more or less back to the police scenario of Nevill being unable to make the calls.

It gets confusing.Maybe we should look at the wording of Nevills calls to JB and the police?
CRAZY and BERSERK! Now,both those words are quite powerful,you dont use them unless someone is completely out of control,especially BERSERK.So what was Sheila doing,or HAD done for Nevill to use those words?
Obviously she was carrying on like a lunatic when Nevill made the calls,but where was she? WHERE ON EARTH was Sheila when Nevill was on the phone?
He couldn't just leave her to run amok and attack June and the boys.
Did Nevill manage to shut Sheila in a room while he was on the phone? How else could he get any peace to make the calls?
Anyway Rob,if it did all kick off at 3.26 when Nevill phoned the police,Sheila didn't have much time to kill eveyone before the police arrived.
Oh well,that will do for now I suppose.

I have often thought that the boys were shot first Leslie in one go, not one shot each then more shots latter. This is also born out by the pattern of the shots. The shots are also in multiples of eight or thereabouts, I believe Sheila would only be able to load around 8 bullets into the magazine as loading the final few bullets gets stiff and hard to insert.

So if the boys are shot first Sheila then reloads which would leave her with around 8 bullets. It's possible the boys were already shot without Nevil knowing when he phones JB? When Nevil calls either the police or JB he has to believe no shots have been fired it's just Sheila going mad waving a gun around?

If JB really planned all this surely he does not use two reloads? Would he not use say three shots on the boys, two or three on Nevil maybe 5 on June leaving Sheila needing to only load one or two bullets to shoot herself which would be easy and no one would have questioned.

Regarding the Aga I don't believe the police would move Nevil absolutely no reason to, if the Aga caused the burns then to me the tragedy kicked off much earlier maybe around 1.00am?

The wounds to Nevil are classic with attacks involving people with PS having a meltdown.

Thanks Rob.
Bill also thinks the boys were shot first,not sure if he thinks the police moved Nevill or not.
Will think about what you have both said.

QuoteBill also thinks the boys were shot first, not sure if he thinks the police moved Nevill or not.
Will think about what you have both said.

I think that moving Nevill onto the coal scuttle would be at least a 2 man job and whoever does it gets covered in blood (which is why it's very unlikely that the police did it). A dead body is bloody hard to lift and I can't imagine how either JB or Sheila could have done it. But, there was no reason for the police to move the body except the remote possibility of larking around after the scene had been viewed by Taff Jones. (I reject this possibility).
I spent years trying to figure out the positioning of Nevill's body without coming to any conclusion. It is the volume of blood running down from his head and over the floor that complicates things. For that amount of blood to flow down and across the floor suggests that however improbable, he was in that position for quite some time, ruling out the possibility of police, or anyone else, having placed him there, in my view.

The other factor is the four shots into the skull. Nevill's head has to be quite low down for these shots to be possible. Even if he is sat on a chair his head is probably too high. So my opinion is that the four shots probably occurred after his head settled on top of the coal scuttle. He was probably unconscious by this time.

Another factor is that it would have been career suicide to tamper with the crime scene until after Taff had ruled four murders and a suicide and I believe that he didn't do that until after 09:30. So there was virtually no time for any manipulation of the crime scene by the cops before Bird started his photography.  As unlikely as it may seem, I think that the body ended up where it is photographed all of its own accord.

Quote from: Bill Robertson on November 08, 2023, 05:33:38 AM

QuoteBill also thinks the boys were shot first, not sure if he thinks the police moved Nevill or not.
Will think about what you have both said.

I think that moving Nevill onto the coal scuttle would be at least a 2 man job and whoever does it gets covered in blood (which is why it's very unlikely that the police did it). A dead body is bloody hard to lift and I can't imagine how either JB or Sheila could have done it. But, there was no reason for the police to move the body except the remote possibility of larking around after the scene had been viewed by Taff Jones. (I reject this possibility).
I spent years trying to figure out the positioning of Nevill's body without coming to any conclusion. It is the volume of blood running down from his head and over the floor that complicates things. For that amount of blood to flow down and across the floor suggests that however improbable, he was in that position for quite some time, ruling out the possibility of police, or anyone else, having placed him there, in my view.

The other factor is the four shots into the skull. Nevill's head has to be quite low down for these shots to be possible. Even if he is sat on a chair his head is probably too high. So my opinion is that the four shots probably occurred after his head settled on top of the coal scuttle. He was probably unconscious by this time.

Another factor is that it would have been career suicide to tamper with the crime scene until after Taff had ruled four murders and a suicide and I believe that he didn't do that until after 09:30. So there was virtually no time for any manipulation of the crime scene by the cops before Bird started his photography.  As unlikely as it may seem, I think that the body ended up where it is photographed all of its own accord.

Thanks Bill.Just one more thing,do you agree with Boyces Aga burn evidence?

Well,it seems that Rob,Bill and myself have all concluded that Nevill ended up on the chair/scuttle by his own steam and no one lifted him into this position.
Bill pointed out that Nevill is in the perfect position to receive the final four head shots and the blood can only be seen around the scuttle.Also,if you look at the crime scene photos,all the blood from Nevills head is also running into the scuttle.There is no blood running down Nevills back or anywhere else,his pyjama jacket looks completely blood free.Surely if Nevill was shot and died somewhere else in a different position the blood trails on his body and clothing would be completely different.

Yes,as Bill says,no matter how precarious Nevill looks,it seems that he did indeed end up on the chair/scuttle of his own accord before being shot in the head.

I suppose there is always the possibility that something else was propping up Nevill,something that the TFG moved upon entry,eg,a chair or the table.Just a thought.

Anyway,let us look at the Aga burn evidence of Philip Boyce.He claims that parts of the Aga made the burns to Nevills back and that they took quite some time to form,possibly hours.So just when was Nevill lying against the Aga on the night of the murders for this to happen?
Well,by deciding that no one moved Nevill after entry,by default as it were,the burns must have obviously
 occurred before Nevill ended up on the scuttle.

Now,there is one absolute fact regarding the case,that is,Jeremy Bamber phoned the police sometime between 3.25 and 3.35.So if JB is guilty,Nevill had received the burns and ended up on the scuttle by this time.
Now,we have spoken about Nevill having to be rendered unconcious in order to lye against the Aga and burn his back,and this indeed gets ridiculed.Now,I can understand this to a fair degree, because it isn't common for a person to be knocked out for very long.But the thing is,if Boyce is right, then Nevill was lying against the Aga for quite a while and therefore must have been unconcious, or dead as Boyce and the CT believe.
But,seeing as we have decided that the burns must have happened before Nevill was dead then someone must have knocked him out,he couldn't have possibly laid there in a concious state,could he!

So,either JB or Sheila must have indeed knocked out Nevill,by process of elimination there is no other option,is there? So no matter how unlikely it seems,the killer did indeed render Nevill unconcious and leave him lying for a considerable amount of time with his back against the Aga.

So,let us recap.We have decided that Nevill burned his back on the Aga[if you believe Boyce] before getting up and sometime later ending up on the chair/scuttle and shot to death.There is no other option if we accept Boyce's evidence and that no one lifted Nevill onto the scuttle.
Now we haven't been told yet just how long it took for the Aga to cause the burns,but would JB really leave Nevill lying there unconcious without shooting him? Just doesn't seem likely does it? Very risky if JB is up stairs shooting the others and Nevill gets to the phone or runs for help.Just wouldn't happen.
The case wouldn't have made it to court if the Aga burns had been known at the time surely? No jury would believe that Bamber would have left Nevill lying alive by the Aga for several minutes or maybe even hours,no way.
Now Sheila however? Well,Bill reminded us that Sheila had no intention of killing June or Nevill and it must have been through their intervention that they ended up victims.This may indeed be why Nevill was knocked out in the first place rather than being shot,yet when he came to and tried to phone for help this then incurred the full wrath of Sheila's disturbed mind.

Now I dont know anything about the CCRC,but if they do accept Boyce's evidence I really cant see how they can fit a believable JB scenario around the burns.
 

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 08, 2023, 07:13:06 PM

Quote from: Bill Robertson on November 08, 2023, 05:33:38 AM

QuoteThanks Bill. Just one more thing, do you agree with Boyces Aga burn evidence?

To be honest, I've never given it much thought, it hasn't interested me as I can't see the CCRC or COA giving it any credence. It's one of those issues that can be dismissed easily by the prosecution. Unfortunately, Boyce doesn't have any credibility as far as the CCRC is concerned, didn't he previously state just as firmly that the burns were caused by a heated up silencer? The source of the marks will never be explained, in the same way that the cuts in the pajama jacket can't be explained either. As far as I know the cuts don't line up with the marks on his back, so what is that about? Fact is, Sheila was mentally unstable and was capable of doing barmy things. But even if she did cause the cuts in the pajamas and the marks on his back, the court would say, so what? As in, anyone could have done both those things prior to the massacre and it makes no difference. The court can easily dismiss such issues and I'm sure that they will.

I have spent my time researching issues capable of influencing the CCRC and the marks on the back don't strike me as worthy of spending a huge amount of time on. Boyce is easily dismissed as an expert as his work is inconsistent in its conclusions. I'm afraid that Boyce's theories are not going to make any impact. Just my opinion!

Quote from: Bill Robertson on November 09, 2023, 05:06:13 AM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 08, 2023, 07:13:06 PM

Quote from: Bill Robertson on November 08, 2023, 05:33:38 AM

QuoteThanks Bill. Just one more thing, do you agree with Boyces Aga burn evidence?

To be honest, I've never given it much thought, it hasn't interested me as I can't see the CCRC or COA giving it any credence. It's one of those issues that can be dismissed easily by the prosecution. Unfortunately, Boyce doesn't have any credibility as far as the CCRC is concerned, didn't he previously state just as firmly that the burns were caused by a heated up silencer? The source of the marks will never be explained, in the same way that the cuts in the pajama jacket can't be explained either. As far as I know the cuts don't line up with the marks on his back, so what is that about? Fact is, Sheila was mentally unstable and was capable of doing barmy things. But even if she did cause the cuts in the pajamas and the marks on his back, the court would say, so what? As in, anyone could have done both those things prior to the massacre and it makes no difference. The court can easily dismiss such issues and I'm sure that they will.

I have spent my time researching issues capable of influencing the CCRC and the marks on the back don't strike me as worthy of spending a huge amount of time on. Boyce is easily dismissed as an expert as his work is inconsistent in its conclusions. I'm afraid that Boyce's theories are not going to make any impact. Just my opinion!

Thanks very much Bill,will digest what you have said.

Boyce claimed the marks to Nevills back could have been made by the end of the rifle barrel Bill,but not with the silencer attached.But in the same programme Mark Williams Thomas made it clear that they were not sure if the rifle made the marks at all.

In the case of the Aga causing the Burns,this was an accidental occurrance as it were.The killer did not inflict the wounds for a reason,but indirectly caused them by injuring Nevill who then fell against the cooker by himself.If the Aga did indeed make the burns it is very unlikely that the killer was even aware of them.

So I dont think its really a case of proving who inflicted the burns to Nevills back Bill,as they were not caused by a direct act by anyone,and if it can be proven that the Aga did cause them and that they took several minutes to form then this has to point to Sheila as the killer surely.
Only if you believe that the police moved Nevill upon entry,then it could point to a guilty JB.It means that JB could have killed Nevill and left him lying against the Aga when he left the farm house,therefore giving the marks time to form before the TFG entered five hours later.

But as you believe that the police did not move Nevill,then the marks had to be made BEFORE Bamber exited the house.If guilty of course.And this is hard to fit into a guilty JB scenario as far as I can see.

So I cant help it Bill,for me the Aga burns do seem to point to an innocent Bamber, if proven, and therefore do seem to be important.




I have to agree with Yvonne Hartley that the sources of heat available at the WHF was limited,and if we rule out anyone actually branding Nevill with a heated item then the Aga was probably the only device in the kitchen capable of causing any burns by lying against it.

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 09, 2023, 10:09:23 PMBoyce claimed the marks to Nevills back could have been made by the end of the rifle barrel Bill,but not with the silencer attached.But in the same programme Mark Williams Thomas made it clear that they were not sure if the rifle made the marks at all.

In the case of the Aga causing the Burns,this was an accidental occurrance as it were.The killer did not inflict the wounds for a reason,but indirectly caused them by injuring Nevill who then fell against the cooker by himself.If the Aga did indeed make the burns it is very unlikely that the killer was even aware of them.

So I dont think its really a case of proving who inflicted the burns to Nevills back Bill,as they were not caused by a direct act by anyone,and if it can be proven that the Aga did cause them and that they took several minutes to form then this has to point to Sheila as the killer surely.
Only if you believe that the police moved Nevill upon entry,then it could point to a guilty JB.It means that JB could have killed Nevill and left him lying against the Aga when he left the farm house,therefore giving the marks time to form before the TFG entered five hours later.

But as you believe that the police did not move Nevill,then the marks had to be made BEFORE Bamber exited the house.If guilty of course.And this is hard to fit into a guilty JB scenario as far as I can see.

So I cant help it Bill,for me the Aga burns do seem to point to an innocent Bamber, if proven, and therefore do seem to be important.




I have to agree with Yvonne Hartley that the sources of heat available at the WHF was limited,and if we rule out anyone actually branding Nevill with a heated item then the Aga was probably the only device in the kitchen capable of causing any burns by lying against it.

The problem is that there is no agreement that the marks are burns. Didn't JB's own defense pathologist say this? If there is no 100% agreement that the marks are burns it's hard to see the CCRC accepting it 40 years later. The CCRC is particularly keen to use statements from the defence experts to shoot down JB. As for Boyce, in the British legal system you don't get two bites at the cherry. If Boyce said previously the marks were caused by a heated rifle barrel he doesn't get to come back years later and say he has changed his mind. The CoA would laugh at him. The CCRC has no scientific expertise, they are mainly just lawyers looking at evidence from a legal perspective and they are very averse to taking risks. The are not going to put their necks on the chopping block and rule that the marks are burns when others have said that they are not sure.

Unfortunately Yvonne Hartley has wasted everyone's time with this issue and delayed a CCRC decision. Her obsession with demonstrating every flaw in the prosecution case and outlining every aspect of incorrect evidence does JB no favours when it comes to getting him freed, it just makes it more difficult and ties up a great deal of CCRC time. This is the problem when so much of the police evidence is incorrect. You can take the Yvonne Hartley approach and write it all down and dump a massive submission on the CCRC and accept that they will take years to wade through it. Or, you pick just one or two important issues and get the CCRC to look at those. Unfortunately, she is obsessed with highlighting every item of evidence that is in any way incorrect and the 'burns' issues falls into this category. Even if they are burns from the Aga, it won't make any difference to the CCRC. They won't get drawn into the kind of speculation that you have outlined and certainly won't see it as grounds for an appeal.

As for the alleged burns, there are too many 'ifs' and 'maybe's'. Are they burns? How were they caused? How long did they take to form? MInutes? Hours? How was Nevill still for the whole time? Too many questions that can't be resolved and therefore too risky for the CCRC to put before the CoA. As you say yourself, "if it can be proven that the Aga did cause them and that they took several minutes to form then this has to point to Sheila as the killer surely". But it can't be proven in the particular case of Nevill. Even if you took a cadaver and placed it up against a heated Aga it would not provide proof because you can never know the circumstances of the particular Aga in the kitchen at WHF. What temperature was the Aga in WHF on the night of 7 August? Nobody knows and nobody could ever know now.

It may be frustrating that the alleged burns evidence seems to point to JB's innocence but in my view it is never going to prove it to the satisfaction of the CoA. All that Yvonne has achieved is to cause some doubts in the minds of some people about what was not even a crucial point at the trial. Drake did not tell the Jury that they could convict JB on the 'burns' evidence and therefore the CCRC/CoA will regard it as a minor issue, not something that swayed the Jury.

Quote from: Bill Robertson on November 10, 2023, 04:32:01 AM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 09, 2023, 10:09:23 PMBoyce claimed the marks to Nevills back could have been made by the end of the rifle barrel Bill,but not with the silencer attached.But in the same programme Mark Williams Thomas made it clear that they were not sure if the rifle made the marks at all.

In the case of the Aga causing the Burns,this was an accidental occurrance as it were.The killer did not inflict the wounds for a reason,but indirectly caused them by injuring Nevill who then fell against the cooker by himself.If the Aga did indeed make the burns it is very unlikely that the killer was even aware of them.

So I dont think its really a case of proving who inflicted the burns to Nevills back Bill,as they were not caused by a direct act by anyone,and if it can be proven that the Aga did cause them and that they took several minutes to form then this has to point to Sheila as the killer surely.
Only if you believe that the police moved Nevill upon entry,then it could point to a guilty JB.It means that JB could have killed Nevill and left him lying against the Aga when he left the farm house,therefore giving the marks time to form before the TFG entered five hours later.

But as you believe that the police did not move Nevill,then the marks had to be made BEFORE Bamber exited the house.If guilty of course.And this is hard to fit into a guilty JB scenario as far as I can see.

So I cant help it Bill,for me the Aga burns do seem to point to an innocent Bamber, if proven, and therefore do seem to be important.




I have to agree with Yvonne Hartley that the sources of heat available at the WHF was limited,and if we rule out anyone actually branding Nevill with a heated item then the Aga was probably the only device in the kitchen capable of causing any burns by lying against it.

The problem is that there is no agreement that the marks are burns. Didn't JB's own defense pathologist say this? If there is no 100% agreement that the marks are burns it's hard to see the CCRC accepting it 40 years later. The CCRC is particularly keen to use statements from the defence experts to shoot down JB. As for Boyce, in the British legal system you don't get two bites at the cherry. If Boyce said previously the marks were caused by a heated rifle barrel he doesn't get to come back years later and say he has changed his mind. The CoA would laugh at him. The CCRC has no scientific expertise, they are mainly just lawyers looking at evidence from a legal perspective and they are very averse to taking risks. The are not going to put their necks on the chopping block and rule that the marks are burns when others have said that they are not sure.

Unfortunately Yvonne Hartley has wasted everyone's time with this issue and delayed a CCRC decision. Her obsession with demonstrating every flaw in the prosecution case and outlining every aspect of incorrect evidence does JB no favours when it comes to getting him freed, it just makes it more difficult and ties up a great deal of CCRC time. This is the problem when so much of the police evidence is incorrect. You can take the Yvonne Hartley approach and write it all down and dump a massive submission on the CCRC and accept that they will take years to wade through it. Or, you pick just one or two important issues and get the CCRC to look at those. Unfortunately, she is obsessed with highlighting every item of evidence that is in any way incorrect and the 'burns' issues falls into this category. Even if they are burns from the Aga, it won't make any difference to the CCRC. They won't get drawn into the kind of speculation that you have outlined and certainly won't see it as grounds for an appeal.

As for the alleged burns, there are too many 'ifs' and 'maybe's'. Are they burns? How were they caused? How long did they take to form? MInutes? Hours? How was Nevill still for the whole time? Too many questions that can't be resolved and therefore too risky for the CCRC to put before the CoA. As you say yourself, "if it can be proven that the Aga did cause them and that they took several minutes to form then this has to point to Sheila as the killer surely". But it can't be proven in the particular case of Nevill. Even if you took a cadaver and placed it up against a heated Aga it would not provide proof because you can never know the circumstances of the particular Aga in the kitchen at WHF. What temperature was the Aga in WHF on the night of 7 August? Nobody knows and nobody could ever know now.

It may be frustrating that the alleged burns evidence seems to point to JB's innocence but in my view it is never going to prove it to the satisfaction of the CoA. All that Yvonne has achieved is to cause some doubts in the minds of some people about what was not even a crucial point at the trial. Drake did not tell the Jury that they could convict JB on the 'burns' evidence and therefore the CCRC/CoA will regard it as a minor issue, not something that swayed the Jury.

Thanks very much for the detailed reply Bill,you have made the burns issue very clear.
Lets just hope some of the other points sent to the CCRC will have an impact.

Well I think the marks are probably caused by the Aga, but proving it is nigh on impossible and I'm not sure what difference it makes. It is Jeremy who insisted on every individual aspect of the  evidence being examined and reported to the CCRC so I guess that he is relaxed about spending years locked up unnecessarily. I think that he could have been out 5 years ago if they had just concentrated on a couple of issues.

Quote from: Bill Robertson on November 10, 2023, 01:28:16 PMWell I think the marks are probably caused by the Aga, but proving it is nigh on impossible and I'm not sure what difference it makes. It is Jeremy who insisted on every individual aspect of the  evidence being examined and reported to the CCRC so I guess that he is relaxed about spending years locked up unnecessarily. I think that he could have been out 5 years ago if they had just concentrated on a couple of issues.

Have you ever seen any documentation regarding the evidence of gun shots heard by Steven Brian Smith Bill? One source says he heard shots from the direction of WHF just before midnight.This could tie in with June being shot while Nevill was lying against the Aga.Would you hear shots outside at a distance from the open bedroom window?
I would like to know exactly what Stephen Smith told the police.

I will search my records and see if his statement is there. My recollection is that he heard a single gunshot from a shotgun but I need to check. He could not possibly have heard the rifle, which is the only weapon that inflicted wounds on the victims. I have to say that I regard his evidence as irrelevant. I hear gunshots every day, living in the country it is commonplace. It could even have been a bird scarer rather than a gunshot.

I had a look at my files but can't find anything related to Smith's report. I would be wary of anything reported in books as authors have been known to make things up, especially CAL.
You have reminded me that some of the first newspaper stories had June going crazy with a shotgun. Maybe Smith came forward after reading that. There were confused reports in the immediate aftermath of the incident.

Quote from: Bill Robertson on November 30, 2023, 05:43:32 AMI will search my records and see if his statement is there. My recollection is that he heard a single gunshot from a shotgun but I need to check. He could not possibly have heard the rifle, which is the only weapon that inflicted wounds on the victims. I have to say that I regard his evidence as irrelevant. I hear gunshots every day, living in the country it is commonplace. It could even have been a bird scarer rather than a gunshot.

I had a look at my files but can't find anything related to Smith's report. I would be wary of anything reported in books as authors have been known to make things up, especially CAL.
You have reminded me that some of the first newspaper stories had June going crazy with a shotgun. Maybe Smith came forward after reading that. There were confused reports in the immediate aftermath of the incident.

Thanks very much Bill.In Lomax's book it is described as gunshot sounds.There is a reference to the shot/s in a document posted by Mike Tesko in 2013,it has something to do with one of the appeals.
I just thought it would be interesting to read Smith's original statement.