Why Was There None of Nevill's Blood in the Main Bedroom? Response to 11 Points

[Erik Narramore]

Here is my response to Adam's '11 points', his attempt to explain why Nevill's blood is not found in the bedroom:

Quote from: Adam on May 01, 2022, 10:49:AM
Nevill did not struggle with Bamber upstairs.

This is possible, and I also accept that Jeremy would be wary of Nevill inflicting any sort of injury on him, but Jeremy had every motivation to stop Nevill, if he was getting away.

You conveniently skip over the major flaw in your scenario: you claim Nevill was in bed, even asleep, but you can't explain Jeremy's failure to kill or incapacitate Nevill from the start, which he surely must have set out to do, if he is guilty.

Quote from: Adam on May 01, 2022, 10:49:AM
From Nevill's first shot to his bedroom exit would be less than 10 seconds.

Impeded or unimpeded?  Please clarify.

If unimpeded, 10 seconds is too long.  His exit would be immediate.

I suggest counting 10 seconds in your head.  It's a long time under circumstances like this.  Long enough for Jeremy to hit him with the rifle stock and/or shoot him.

Quote from: Adam on May 01, 2022, 10:49:AM
It was a rifle for shooting rabbits.

So?  The pathologist in his report makes it plain that any one of the head region bullet injuries to Nevill should be assumed to have been fatal.  It's a lethal weapon.

Quote from: Adam on May 01, 2022, 10:49:AM
Only 5 carpet samples were tested.

So what?  Surely the question should be whether the samples were comprehensive.  How large were the sections of carpet?  Did they cover all areas of blood?  I dislike making assumptions, but surely it is reasonable to assume that the SOC officers took samples from all relevant areas?  We also know from scene of crime photographs of the main bedroom that there was no blood visible on Nevill's side.

I accept that at the time the carpet samples were taken, suspicion was officially on Sheila not Jeremy, but the implications would not have been thought through.  The SOC officers would have sought to prove not just June's blood but Nevill's as well.  In some ways, this could be seen as crucial to the prosecution case and the absence of Nevill's blood seems to be a glaring flaw that has been glossed over.

I believe it was two carpet samples: ND/10 and ND/11.  My sources are:

- the statement of DS Neil Davidson, dated 24th. October 1985;
- the SOCO Exhibit List;
- the Articles for Submission form, signed by DI Cook and DS Harrison on 13th. August 1985.

I believe the 2002 appeal judgment is wrong on this point: probably a typographical error, but it would be interesting to read back through the transcript to establish this, though I see no reason why the prosecution would mislead the court on this point.  I suppose it's also possible that there were in fact five samples, but somehow entered under two exhibit numbers.

Quote from: Adam on May 01, 2022, 10:49:AM
The samples tested would likely be June's blood. She crawled/walked across the bedroom after being shot 5 times. And died in the bedroom.

I understand what you are saying.  You are arguing that because Nevill's body was downstairs, the SOC officers assumed erroneously that Nevill's blood could not be in the bedroom.  But to me, this makes no sense.  Nevill is in his pyjamas and heavily wounded, so they would inevitably wonder if he was shot in the bedroom and examine and record the scene accordingly.

On finding that none of the carpet samples gave up Nevill's blood, they would come to the conclusion that you and the other dogmatic guilters defend to the hilt: that Nevill was shot in the bedroom but didn't spill any blood there.  This is because if they admit that Nevill's first four shots could have been outside the bedroom, it then opens the way for a phone call to Jeremy, whereas if you can confine Nevill to the bedroom, a phone call to Jeremy seems less likely (albeit not impossible).

That's what this whole argument is really about and is why you and other ultras on the guilt side stick to this ridiculously dogmatic position in the face of strong countervailing evidence.

Quote from: Adam on May 01, 2022, 10:49:AM
The shoulder is not an area of high blood flow.

The arm is not an area of high blood flow.

I'm still not quite understanding what you mean by "an area of high blood flow".  It's perhaps fortunate for us all that I never considered the medical profession.

Quote from: Adam on May 01, 2022, 10:49:AM
Blood would have to congregate inside the mouth. Then come out of the mouth.

For which wounds?

Quote from: Adam on May 01, 2022, 10:49:AM
Blood would likely stain the pyjama top first before dripping onto the floor.

But did he bleed or not?  If you're now saying that he did bleed, then I agree blood would have ended up on his pyjama top, but that would not be the only place the blood would go.  According to the FSS examination record, the blood staining to Nevill's pyjamas was post-mortem, as there appears to be no blood staining to the pyjamas in the crime scene photographs of Nevill's body.  I must admit, it is difficult to discern blood staining one way or the other in the photograph I have seen, and I am not sure what value to place on this observation by an FSS scientist.  If we accept the prosecution/pro-guilt narrative and assume that Nevill suffered four shots in the bedroom, it means you would have to accept that Nevill bled very little, if at all, between the bedroom and the kitchen, but then when did he start bleeding?  On the other hand, if we assume Nevill was not shot in the bedroom, then the lack of staining does perhaps make a little more sense as the shots could have come that bit closer to death, perhaps beginning when Nevill was on the lower part of the main stairway.  I must admit, it is difficult to discern blood staining one way or the other in the photograph I have seen.

Quote from: Adam on May 01, 2022, 10:49:AM
Nevill's two face shots would be when he was lying on his back or side. Not when facing the bed sheets.

What was the order of wounding to Nevill?  You now say he was in bed asleep, woken by shots to June, then Jeremy fired two shots into Nevill while he was still in bed.  Were these two shots the face shots?  If so, how could he not leave blood on his side of the bed?  Isn't the face a highly vascularised region of the body, with lots of blood vessels, so immediate bleeding?  I know that if I just suffer a simple, very minor cut to my face, I will bleed and the bleeding can be quite profuse, even though the wound is superficial.

Apart from the likelihood of blood on the pillow, isn't it also quite likely that when shot while in bed, Nevill would touch his wound(s) and leave blood on the other bedclothes?  He then has to touch the bedclothes to get out of bed.  You told us he rolled on the floor.  Wouldn't he then leave blood prints on the carpet?  Yet Nevill's blood was not found in the bedroom.

Quote from: Adam on May 01, 2022, 10:49:AM
Blood instantly pouring from Nevill's face & torso would have coincided with him dying in the bedroom. Due to the rifle being high powered.

I think what you mean is that you don't think Nevill bled much due to the low caliber of the rifle and bullet, but the point is that Nevill's blood was not found in the bedroom at all.

[Erik Narramore]

Adam seized on one of my comments above, suggesting that I was arguing that Nevill would have fled the bedroom in less than 10 seconds.  This was a contextual misrepresentation.  I had asked Adam whether he thinks Nevill ran out of the bedroom unimpeded.  I suggested that if so, 10 seconds would be too long.  Doesn't make it at all likely that the carpet and bedclothes would be free of his blood under such circumstances.

[Erik Narramore]

Apart from anything else, it would take less than 10 seconds from the point he is on the floor.  He would be injured, though, and the guilt side are saying he was shot in bed and in contact with the carpet.  That being the case, I simply don't understand how you can say that Nevill would not have left any blood.

[Erik Narramore]

Quote from: Adam on June 26, 2022, 12:29:PM
I said that if he exited the bedroom unimpeded, it would take less than 10 seconds from the point he is on the floor.

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Thanks QC.

The evidence is there was no upstairs fight - Nevill unimpeded.

Note the words, "if unimpeded".  If.  Note also I am saying that there would still be blood from Nevill on the bedclothes and carpet.

You read selectively.

[Erik Narramore]

Quote from: Adam on June 26, 2022, 12:41:PM
How can there be blood on the pillow.

It wouldn't build up inside his mouth within 3 seconds. Let alone release from his mouth.

I didn't mention 'pillow' specifically, but why couldn't there be blood on the pillow?  Why would the blood only be inside his mouth?  Where's your medical evidence for these assertions that you make?

Common sense/common knowledge tells me that somebody who is shot will bleed, will touch their wounds, and will leave transfer blood stains.  What are your medical and/or forensic qualifications and credentials that can tell me differently?