The reference to DB2 Fire Debris in the notes of John Hayward

[Erik Narramore]

This was brought up by 'Bubo Bubo' on the Blue Forum.  He points out that in the notes of the FSS scientist, John Hayward (extract attached), there is reference to 'fire debris', exhibit DB2.

I must admit, I'm not quite clear what Bubo Bubo is getting at.  Bubo Bubo goes on to claim that the fire debris included the following items:

Part of a blanket
Part of a mans slip on shoe
Part of a scarf
Part of an overcoat
Part of a plastic mackintosh

I am certainly open to being corrected, but I am not clear how Bubo Bubo comes to the conclusion that these items were part of the fire debris.  I asked him to explain further, but didn't get anywhere.

If he is just putting 2 and 2 together, as it were, then I can certainly appreciate why he has made that deduction, but it could just as easily be that these items were cut up as a necessary part of the forensic examination process so that the material is tractable/examinable.

Looking at the document, it appears to be an extract from John Hayward's notes.  Bubo Bubo did not upload the full document and seemed reluctant to. 

Based on what we have - the document attached - it does refer to 'DB2 Fire Debris', which makes sense and if the 'DB' is David Bird, then this may suggest that he either photographed the debris or he was just recording it in his capacity as a general SOC officer.

On the wider question of why the police burned items from the house, I don't understand Bubo's assertions.  Jeremy did not enter the farmhouse in the aftermath of the tragedy.  The burning of items from the house was on the initiative of the police, albeit with Jeremy's consent, and this occurred because from the perspective of the officers present, it was a conclusive murder-suicide and nobody wanted Jeremy to have to re-enter the farmhouse with blood everywhere.  In other words, the police acted out of consideration for Jeremy, having secured the evidence that they believed they needed.

Again, I must also enter a slight defence of the police in that as part of the process of destroying these items, they were making decisions about what was and was not needed.  It would have seemed both logical and emotionally considerate to destroy the rest.  If this turned out to be the wrong decision, then the police did act to put matters right and bring the real culprit to justice - or that is, at least, the official narrative.

[Leslie Aalders]

This was brought up by 'Bubo Bubo' on the Blue Forum.  He points out that in the notes of the FSS scientist, John Hayward (extract attached), there is reference to 'fire debris', exhibit DB2.

I must admit, I'm not quite clear what Bubo Bubo is getting at.  Bubo Bubo goes on to claim that the fire debris included the following items:

Part of a blanket
Part of a mans slip on shoe
Part of a scarf
Part of an overcoat
Part of a plastic mackintosh

I am certainly open to being corrected, but I am not clear how Bubo Bubo comes to the conclusion that these items were part of the fire debris.  I asked him to explain further, but didn't get anywhere.

If he is just putting 2 and 2 together, as it were, then I can certainly appreciate why he has made that deduction, but it could just as easily be that these items were cut up as a necessary part of the forensic examination process so that the material is tractable/examinable.

Looking at the document, it appears to be an extract from John Hayward's notes.  Bubo Bubo did not upload the full document and seemed reluctant to. 

Based on what we have - the document attached - it does refer to 'DB2 Fire Debris', which makes sense and if the 'DB' is David Bird, then this may suggest that he either photographed the debris or he was just recording it in his capacity as a general SOC officer.

On the wider question of why the police burned items from the house, I don't understand Bubo's assertions.  Jeremy did not enter the farmhouse in the aftermath of the tragedy.  The burning of items from the house was on the initiative of the police, albeit with Jeremy's consent, and this occurred because from the perspective of the officers present, it was a conclusive murder-suicide and nobody wanted Jeremy to have to re-enter the farmhouse with blood everywhere.  In other words, the police acted out of consideration for Jeremy, having secured the evidence that they believed they needed.

Again, I must also enter a slight defence of the police in that as part of the process of destroying these items, they were making decisions about what was and was not needed.  It would have seemed both logical and emotionally considerate to destroy the rest.  If this turned out to be the wrong decision, then the police did act to put matters right and bring the real culprit to justice - or that is, at least, the official narrative.

Hi Erik,as you know Philip Boyce has recently claimed that the burns on Nevills back were caused by him lying against the Aga handles.

Bubo made this assertion years ago albeit about the top mark only.Now Bubo claims the police moved Nevill to get access to the Aga oven to burn items ie DB2 items.

But it has been pointed out that the trouble with this is,Nevill must have received all his wounds by the time he fell against the Aga.

Also,Boyce has Nevill facing in the opposite direction than he was photographed.So the police would have needed to turn him end to end then place him on the chair/scuttle.

Is this feasible? Well I suppose anything is possible.For starters Nevill must have been sitting down and recieved the four head shots before falling to the floor with his back against the Aga,quite possible.

Now what does the blood trail show you ask.Well Boyce has Nevill lying against the Aga with his head roughly in the same place as the cushion,and that is indeed the same area as the scuttle and where the main pool of blood can be seen.So again,it is possible he bled most while he was lying against the Aga with his head on the floor.

Now what about blood stains on the Aga its self.Well Nevills pyjama jacket was free of blood I believe,so if his head was curled forward the Aga needn't have been stained with blood I suppose.

The trouble is hypostasis indicates Nevill had been in the chair/scuttle when he died,I think.??

Anyway back to Bubo's claim about DB2,he claims the items on the list were used to move the bodies about then burned in the oven.I have no idea where this information comes from.The documents you have posted Erik show a referrence to DB2 fire debris on one page then the list of alleged items on another page,how do you know that DB2 is referring to those items?

Also,is there a refference to them actually being fire debris from the Aga?Was there any other open fires in the house?

The thing is using any fire in the house before the soco team had been in would be in breach of the rules wouldn't it? Weren't the TFG and soco in comunication with each other? The TFG must have known the Aga would be checked for evidence and that remnants of clothing would be very suspicious.

So,is there any actual proof that parts of clothing were found in the Aga?

[Erik Narramore]

Leslie,

Bubo bubo is the one who claims that the items were included in DB2.

I asked him for the full notes of John Hayward, but I think the complete notes are now on this Forum.  I will check and provide a link.

For now, I can't comment further.  This aspect of the case is a bit ahead of where I am currently in my research.

[Erik Narramore]

In fact, the document Bubo bubo found (probably somewhere on the Blue Forum) is a draft statement of John Hayward, written on 8th. November 1985 and finalised in typed form on 13th. November 1985.

Here is the full handwritten version:
https://jeremybamberdiscussionforum.com/index.php?topic=3635.msg6807#msg6807

The typed version is here:
https://jeremybamberdiscussionforum.com/index.php?topic=3636.0

This now brings back to me the fact that I had spent ages trying to get hold of these notes and there is another thread in the 'Blood' section where I am trying assemble them into some order for transcription, which I think should be done anyway as there may be differences of significance between the handwritten and typed versions.