Jeremy Bamber Discussion Forum

Quote from: Rob Garland on November 05, 2023, 10:22:46 PM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 04, 2023, 11:59:36 PMThe thing is,if Nevill phoned the police at 3.25, was June and the boys dead by then?
If not,things must have moved fast before the police arrived.And why phone anyone if no one was injured at that point.? If they were dead,why didn't Nevill mention this to the police or JB?
Could they have been killed while Nevill was asleep down stairs? Surely not,wouldn't he have checked out what had happened when he woke up before phoning anyone?
And what about Nevill,was he uninjured when he made the calls to JB and the police?If so,we have to ask again,why was he phoning at all?
Now,Erik gave a scenario where things kick off in the kitchen between Nevill and Sheila, in which Nevill phones JB and Sheila runs up stairs and starts shooting.This is quite plausable,but there would have been no time for Nevill to call the police too before chasing after Sheila.
In all honesty,it is hard to come up with a scenario where Nevill gets a chance to call both JB and the police.
Yet,the CT claim that Nevill made a call to both JB and the police before being beaten and shot to death minutes later before falling against the Aga,then the police move Nevill to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
So when do the CT think Nevill was shot in the face and arm? Before the phone calls or after?
I simply cant work out a scenario that fits very well with Nevill calling the police then being moved by the TFG upon entry.
But I suppose, all that the CT need is proof of a call from Nevill,which they claim they have got.
So who knows,lets see what the CCRC conclude.

If there is proof of a call to the police from Nevil this virtually clears JB Leslie unless the prosecution claims the call was faked? Did the police hide the call out of honorable intentions?

It is difficult to fit the burns into a scenario if they take several hours to form, unless the police did actually move Nevil upon entry to the kitchen but why?

The only other option and to me the most likely is the altercation between Nevil and Sheila played out over a much longer time period, but if Nevil somehow ended up against the Aga for several hours I believe the call to JB has to be before any shots have been fired?

If the Aga is the cause of the burns to me this greatly helps JB, there is no way JB would be messing around for several hours he would just finish Nevil off where he lay.

There is quite a comprehensive discussion about Nevills phone call to the police in the official JB innocence campaign forum Rob.The CT claim that recordings of calls from both JB and Nevill to the police should still exist as copies were made and no record of their destruction has been found.They think the recordings may be held under PII.
The CT make quite a good argument about the two written logs as well Rob and firmly believe that Nevill phoned the police at 3.26 and JB phoned them at 3.36.
So,if we go by this,how do we fit a scenario around these times? What state was everyone in when Nevill called the police at 3.26?
 The thing is,the CT dont give a comprehensive scenario,so we dont know what had happened prior to Nevill calling the police at 3.26,only that he was consequently beaten and shot to death before falling against the Aga and there after moved to the chair/scuttle by the police.

So,what the CT need to make clear is,did all the victims die after Nevill pnoned the police or was June and the boys already dead? If so,why didn't Nevill mention this to JB or the police?
And as you say Rob,what reason did the police have for moving Nevill after entry.
You would think if Sheila didn't start shooting till after Nevill called the police,then he must have been the first to die before June and the boys were awake,otherwise everyone would have been running about the house and the boys could not have possibly died in their sleep.Nevill must have been despatched first before Sheila headed up stairs to attack an unsuspecting June and twins,who must have still been sleeping after Nevill was shot.
Trouble is,we are told Nevill was shot four times before ending up in the kitchen.
So Rob,obviously what we have to ask is,how did it all kick off and what made Nevill decide to call JB and the police,and more importantly,where was Sheila when he was making the calls? Just how can the CT explain this?
Or indeed how can any of us??
Well,if we are to go by the CT scenario, then it must have been obvious to Nevill that Sheila was having a psychotic episode and was very dangerous.But why not phone her doctors for help? Well,obviously Sheila must have been in possesion of the rifle and terrifying Nevill.

Could it have kicked off in Sheilas bedroom? Did Nevill find her there with the rifle? This would at least explain Nevill being shot from above in the arm and shoulder while running down stairs.But what about the face shots before reaching the kitchen? He couldn't make the calls could he? We're more or less back to the police scenario of Nevill being unable to make the calls.

It gets confusing.Maybe we should look at the wording of Nevills calls to JB and the police?
CRAZY and BERSERK! Now,both those words are quite powerful,you dont use them unless someone is completely out of control,especially BERSERK.So what was Sheila doing,or HAD done for Nevill to use those words?
Obviously she was carrying on like a lunatic when Nevill made the calls,but where was she? WHERE ON EARTH was Sheila when Nevill was on the phone?
He couldn't just leave her to run amok and attack June and the boys.
Did Nevill manage to shut Sheila in a room while he was on the phone? How else could he get any peace to make the calls?
Anyway Rob,if it did all kick off at 3.26 when Nevill phoned the police,Sheila didn't have much time to kill eveyone before the police arrived.
Oh well,that will do for now I suppose.

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 04, 2023, 11:59:36 PMThe thing is,if Nevill phoned the police at 3.25, was June and the boys dead by then?
If not,things must have moved fast before the police arrived.And why phone anyone if no one was injured at that point.? If they were dead,why didn't Nevill mention this to the police or JB?
Could they have been killed while Nevill was asleep down stairs? Surely not,wouldn't he have checked out what had happened when he woke up before phoning anyone?
And what about Nevill,was he uninjured when he made the calls to JB and the police?If so,we have to ask again,why was he phoning at all?
Now,Erik gave a scenario where things kick off in the kitchen between Nevill and Sheila, in which Nevill phones JB and Sheila runs up stairs and starts shooting.This is quite plausable,but there would have been no time for Nevill to call the police too before chasing after Sheila.
In all honesty,it is hard to come up with a scenario where Nevill gets a chance to call both JB and the police.
Yet,the CT claim that Nevill made a call to both JB and the police before being beaten and shot to death minutes later before falling against the Aga,then the police move Nevill to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
So when do the CT think Nevill was shot in the face and arm? Before the phone calls or after?
I simply cant work out a scenario that fits very well with Nevill calling the police then being moved by the TFG upon entry.
But I suppose, all that the CT need is proof of a call from Nevill,which they claim they have got.
So who knows,lets see what the CCRC conclude.

If there is proof of a call to the police from Nevil this virtually clears JB Leslie unless the prosecution claims the call was faked? Did the police hide the call out of honorable intentions?

It is difficult to fit the burns into a scenario if they take several hours to form, unless the police did actually move Nevil upon entry to the kitchen but why?

The only other option and to me the most likely is the altercation between Nevil and Sheila played out over a much longer time period, but if Nevil somehow ended up against the Aga for several hours I believe the call to JB has to be before any shots have been fired?

If the Aga is the cause of the burns to me this greatly helps JB, there is no way JB would be messing around for several hours he would just finish Nevil off where he lay.

The thing is,if Nevill phoned the police at 3.25, was June and the boys dead by then?
If not,things must have moved fast before the police arrived.And why phone anyone if no one was injured at that point.? If they were dead,why didn't Nevill mention this to the police or JB?
Could they have been killed while Nevill was asleep down stairs? Surely not,wouldn't he have checked out what had happened when he woke up before phoning anyone?
And what about Nevill,was he uninjured when he made the calls to JB and the police?If so,we have to ask again,why was he phoning at all?
Now,Erik gave a scenario where things kick off in the kitchen between Nevill and Sheila, in which Nevill phones JB and Sheila runs up stairs and starts shooting.This is quite plausable,but there would have been no time for Nevill to call the police too before chasing after Sheila.
In all honesty,it is hard to come up with a scenario where Nevill gets a chance to call both JB and the police.
Yet,the CT claim that Nevill made a call to both JB and the police before being beaten and shot to death minutes later before falling against the Aga,then the police move Nevill to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
So when do the CT think Nevill was shot in the face and arm? Before the phone calls or after?
I simply cant work out a scenario that fits very well with Nevill calling the police then being moved by the TFG upon entry.
But I suppose, all that the CT need is proof of a call from Nevill,which they claim they have got.
So who knows,lets see what the CCRC conclude.

I suppose,if the CT can prove that a call was made to the police by Nevill then that would be all that is needed to prove JBs innocence.And this is indeed one of the points submitted to the CCRC.

If Boyce and the CT think that Nevill was already dead when he was lying against the Aga,when do they think he made the phone calls?
The CT think that Nevill made a call to the police as well as to Jeremy,this is part of the current submission to the CCRC.So when do they claim the calls were made?
Surely they will need a complete scenario to convince the CCRC and the rest of us of Bambers innocence?

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 29, 2023, 04:28:43 PM

Quote from: Rob Garland on October 29, 2023, 03:34:30 PM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 29, 2023, 03:17:51 PM

Quote from: Bill Robertson on October 29, 2023, 03:01:54 PMWe now have a scenario where we know that Hayward did not find a match for Sheila Caffell's blood in a silencer despite the evidence that he gave in court (see recent CCRC Watch article). We also know that David Boutflour's blood was found in a silencer, though we don't know for certain which one. We also know for sure Fletcher measured two different silencers, one 7 inches long and one 6.5 inches long.
It seems to me that there is a possibility that if there was blood in one or more silencers, it could have been animal blood rather than SC/RB blood, and that a different silencer contains blood from DB. I wonder if the CCRC will get any nearer to finding out the truth?

Very interesting indeed Bill.I am very poor at understanding the scientific details of the blood samples.

What I also find interesting Leslie is that I read somewhere that two silencers were picked up by the police (from the relatives i believe?) during the trial and taken to the court.

I will try and locate the source.

Well,if the silencer evidence is demolished and the Aga burns accepted surely an appeal will have to be granted Rob.

Yes you would think so Leslie but the CCRC will try to explain it away somehow I fear?

Quote from: Rob Garland on October 29, 2023, 03:34:30 PM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 29, 2023, 03:17:51 PM

Quote from: Bill Robertson on October 29, 2023, 03:01:54 PMWe now have a scenario where we know that Hayward did not find a match for Sheila Caffell's blood in a silencer despite the evidence that he gave in court (see recent CCRC Watch article). We also know that David Boutflour's blood was found in a silencer, though we don't know for certain which one. We also know for sure Fletcher measured two different silencers, one 7 inches long and one 6.5 inches long.
It seems to me that there is a possibility that if there was blood in one or more silencers, it could have been animal blood rather than SC/RB blood, and that a different silencer contains blood from DB. I wonder if the CCRC will get any nearer to finding out the truth?

Very interesting indeed Bill.I am very poor at understanding the scientific details of the blood samples.

What I also find interesting Leslie is that I read somewhere that two silencers were picked up by the police (from the relatives i believe?) during the trial and taken to the court.

I will try and locate the source.

Well,if the silencer evidence is demolished and the Aga burns accepted surely an appeal will have to be granted Rob.

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on October 29, 2023, 03:17:51 PM

Quote from: Bill Robertson on October 29, 2023, 03:01:54 PMWe now have a scenario where we know that Hayward did not find a match for Sheila Caffell's blood in a silencer despite the evidence that he gave in court (see recent CCRC Watch article). We also know that David Boutflour's blood was found in a silencer, though we don't know for certain which one. We also know for sure Fletcher measured two different silencers, one 7 inches long and one 6.5 inches long.
It seems to me that there is a possibility that if there was blood in one or more silencers, it could have been animal blood rather than SC/RB blood, and that a different silencer contains blood from DB. I wonder if the CCRC will get any nearer to finding out the truth?

Very interesting indeed Bill.I am very poor at understanding the scientific details of the blood samples.

What I also find interesting Leslie is that I read somewhere that two silencers were picked up by the police (from the relatives i believe?) during the trial and taken to the court.

I will try and locate the source.

Quote from: Bill Robertson on October 29, 2023, 03:01:54 PMWe now have a scenario where we know that Hayward did not find a match for Sheila Caffell's blood in a silencer despite the evidence that he gave in court (see recent CCRC Watch article). We also know that David Boutflour's blood was found in a silencer, though we don't know for certain which one. We also know for sure Fletcher measured two different silencers, one 7 inches long and one 6.5 inches long.
It seems to me that there is a possibility that if there was blood in one or more silencers, it could have been animal blood rather than SC/RB blood, and that a different silencer contains blood from DB. I wonder if the CCRC will get any nearer to finding out the truth?

Very interesting indeed Bill.I am very poor at understanding the scientific details of the blood samples.

We now have a scenario where we know that Hayward did not find a match for Sheila Caffell's blood in a silencer despite the evidence that he gave in court (see recent CCRC Watch article). We also know that David Boutflour's blood was found in a silencer, though we don't know for certain which one. We also know for sure Fletcher measured two different silencers, one 7 inches long and one 6.5 inches long.
It seems to me that there is a possibility that if there was blood in one or more silencers, it could have been animal blood rather than SC/RB blood, and that a different silencer contains blood from DB. I wonder if the CCRC will get any nearer to finding out the truth?