Jeremy Bamber Discussion Forum

Quote from: Bill Robertson on November 09, 2023, 05:06:13 AM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 08, 2023, 07:13:06 PM

Quote from: Bill Robertson on November 08, 2023, 05:33:38 AM

QuoteThanks Bill. Just one more thing, do you agree with Boyces Aga burn evidence?

To be honest, I've never given it much thought, it hasn't interested me as I can't see the CCRC or COA giving it any credence. It's one of those issues that can be dismissed easily by the prosecution. Unfortunately, Boyce doesn't have any credibility as far as the CCRC is concerned, didn't he previously state just as firmly that the burns were caused by a heated up silencer? The source of the marks will never be explained, in the same way that the cuts in the pajama jacket can't be explained either. As far as I know the cuts don't line up with the marks on his back, so what is that about? Fact is, Sheila was mentally unstable and was capable of doing barmy things. But even if she did cause the cuts in the pajamas and the marks on his back, the court would say, so what? As in, anyone could have done both those things prior to the massacre and it makes no difference. The court can easily dismiss such issues and I'm sure that they will.

I have spent my time researching issues capable of influencing the CCRC and the marks on the back don't strike me as worthy of spending a huge amount of time on. Boyce is easily dismissed as an expert as his work is inconsistent in its conclusions. I'm afraid that Boyce's theories are not going to make any impact. Just my opinion!

Thanks very much Bill,will digest what you have said.

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 08, 2023, 07:13:06 PM

Quote from: Bill Robertson on November 08, 2023, 05:33:38 AM

QuoteThanks Bill. Just one more thing, do you agree with Boyces Aga burn evidence?

To be honest, I've never given it much thought, it hasn't interested me as I can't see the CCRC or COA giving it any credence. It's one of those issues that can be dismissed easily by the prosecution. Unfortunately, Boyce doesn't have any credibility as far as the CCRC is concerned, didn't he previously state just as firmly that the burns were caused by a heated up silencer? The source of the marks will never be explained, in the same way that the cuts in the pajama jacket can't be explained either. As far as I know the cuts don't line up with the marks on his back, so what is that about? Fact is, Sheila was mentally unstable and was capable of doing barmy things. But even if she did cause the cuts in the pajamas and the marks on his back, the court would say, so what? As in, anyone could have done both those things prior to the massacre and it makes no difference. The court can easily dismiss such issues and I'm sure that they will.

I have spent my time researching issues capable of influencing the CCRC and the marks on the back don't strike me as worthy of spending a huge amount of time on. Boyce is easily dismissed as an expert as his work is inconsistent in its conclusions. I'm afraid that Boyce's theories are not going to make any impact. Just my opinion!

Quote from: Bill Robertson on November 08, 2023, 05:33:38 AM

QuoteBill also thinks the boys were shot first, not sure if he thinks the police moved Nevill or not.
Will think about what you have both said.

I think that moving Nevill onto the coal scuttle would be at least a 2 man job and whoever does it gets covered in blood (which is why it's very unlikely that the police did it). A dead body is bloody hard to lift and I can't imagine how either JB or Sheila could have done it. But, there was no reason for the police to move the body except the remote possibility of larking around after the scene had been viewed by Taff Jones. (I reject this possibility).
I spent years trying to figure out the positioning of Nevill's body without coming to any conclusion. It is the volume of blood running down from his head and over the floor that complicates things. For that amount of blood to flow down and across the floor suggests that however improbable, he was in that position for quite some time, ruling out the possibility of police, or anyone else, having placed him there, in my view.

The other factor is the four shots into the skull. Nevill's head has to be quite low down for these shots to be possible. Even if he is sat on a chair his head is probably too high. So my opinion is that the four shots probably occurred after his head settled on top of the coal scuttle. He was probably unconscious by this time.

Another factor is that it would have been career suicide to tamper with the crime scene until after Taff had ruled four murders and a suicide and I believe that he didn't do that until after 09:30. So there was virtually no time for any manipulation of the crime scene by the cops before Bird started his photography.  As unlikely as it may seem, I think that the body ended up where it is photographed all of its own accord.

QuoteBill also thinks the boys were shot first, not sure if he thinks the police moved Nevill or not.
Will think about what you have both said.

Quote from: Rob Garland on November 07, 2023, 06:30:07 PM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 06, 2023, 10:04:09 PM

Quote from: Rob Garland on November 05, 2023, 10:22:46 PM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 04, 2023, 11:59:36 PMThe thing is,if Nevill phoned the police at 3.25, was June and the boys dead by then?
If not,things must have moved fast before the police arrived.And why phone anyone if no one was injured at that point.? If they were dead,why didn't Nevill mention this to the police or JB?
Could they have been killed while Nevill was asleep down stairs? Surely not,wouldn't he have checked out what had happened when he woke up before phoning anyone?
And what about Nevill,was he uninjured when he made the calls to JB and the police?If so,we have to ask again,why was he phoning at all?
Now,Erik gave a scenario where things kick off in the kitchen between Nevill and Sheila, in which Nevill phones JB and Sheila runs up stairs and starts shooting.This is quite plausable,but there would have been no time for Nevill to call the police too before chasing after Sheila.
In all honesty,it is hard to come up with a scenario where Nevill gets a chance to call both JB and the police.
Yet,the CT claim that Nevill made a call to both JB and the police before being beaten and shot to death minutes later before falling against the Aga,then the police move Nevill to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
So when do the CT think Nevill was shot in the face and arm? Before the phone calls or after?
I simply cant work out a scenario that fits very well with Nevill calling the police then being moved by the TFG upon entry.
But I suppose, all that the CT need is proof of a call from Nevill,which they claim they have got.
So who knows,lets see what the CCRC conclude.

If there is proof of a call to the police from Nevil this virtually clears JB Leslie unless the prosecution claims the call was faked? Did the police hide the call out of honorable intentions?

It is difficult to fit the burns into a scenario if they take several hours to form, unless the police did actually move Nevil upon entry to the kitchen but why?

The only other option and to me the most likely is the altercation between Nevil and Sheila played out over a much longer time period, but if Nevil somehow ended up against the Aga for several hours I believe the call to JB has to be before any shots have been fired?

If the Aga is the cause of the burns to me this greatly helps JB, there is no way JB would be messing around for several hours he would just finish Nevil off where he lay.

There is quite a comprehensive discussion about Nevills phone call to the police in the official JB innocence campaign forum Rob.The CT claim that recordings of calls from both JB and Nevill to the police should still exist as copies were made and no record of their destruction has been found.They think the recordings may be held under PII.
The CT make quite a good argument about the two written logs as well Rob and firmly believe that Nevill phoned the police at 3.26 and JB phoned them at 3.36.
So,if we go by this,how do we fit a scenario around these times? What state was everyone in when Nevill called the police at 3.26?
 The thing is,the CT dont give a comprehensive scenario,so we dont know what had happened prior to Nevill calling the police at 3.26,only that he was consequently beaten and shot to death before falling against the Aga and there after moved to the chair/scuttle by the police.

So,what the CT need to make clear is,did all the victims die after Nevill pnoned the police or was June and the boys already dead? If so,why didn't Nevill mention this to JB or the police?
And as you say Rob,what reason did the police have for moving Nevill after entry.
You would think if Sheila didn't start shooting till after Nevill called the police,then he must have been the first to die before June and the boys were awake,otherwise everyone would have been running about the house and the boys could not have possibly died in their sleep.Nevill must have been despatched first before Sheila headed up stairs to attack an unsuspecting June and twins,who must have still been sleeping after Nevill was shot.
Trouble is,we are told Nevill was shot four times before ending up in the kitchen.
So Rob,obviously what we have to ask is,how did it all kick off and what made Nevill decide to call JB and the police,and more importantly,where was Sheila when he was making the calls? Just how can the CT explain this?
Or indeed how can any of us??
Well,if we are to go by the CT scenario, then it must have been obvious to Nevill that Sheila was having a psychotic episode and was very dangerous.But why not phone her doctors for help? Well,obviously Sheila must have been in possesion of the rifle and terrifying Nevill.

Could it have kicked off in Sheilas bedroom? Did Nevill find her there with the rifle? This would at least explain Nevill being shot from above in the arm and shoulder while running down stairs.But what about the face shots before reaching the kitchen? He couldn't make the calls could he? We're more or less back to the police scenario of Nevill being unable to make the calls.

It gets confusing.Maybe we should look at the wording of Nevills calls to JB and the police?
CRAZY and BERSERK! Now,both those words are quite powerful,you dont use them unless someone is completely out of control,especially BERSERK.So what was Sheila doing,or HAD done for Nevill to use those words?
Obviously she was carrying on like a lunatic when Nevill made the calls,but where was she? WHERE ON EARTH was Sheila when Nevill was on the phone?
He couldn't just leave her to run amok and attack June and the boys.
Did Nevill manage to shut Sheila in a room while he was on the phone? How else could he get any peace to make the calls?
Anyway Rob,if it did all kick off at 3.26 when Nevill phoned the police,Sheila didn't have much time to kill eveyone before the police arrived.
Oh well,that will do for now I suppose.

I have often thought that the boys were shot first Leslie in one go, not one shot each then more shots latter. This is also born out by the pattern of the shots. The shots are also in multiples of eight or thereabouts, I believe Sheila would only be able to load around 8 bullets into the magazine as loading the final few bullets gets stiff and hard to insert.

So if the boys are shot first Sheila then reloads which would leave her with around 8 bullets. It's possible the boys were already shot without Nevil knowing when he phones JB? When Nevil calls either the police or JB he has to believe no shots have been fired it's just Sheila going mad waving a gun around?

If JB really planned all this surely he does not use two reloads? Would he not use say three shots on the boys, two or three on Nevil maybe 5 on June leaving Sheila needing to only load one or two bullets to shoot herself which would be easy and no one would have questioned.

Regarding the Aga I don't believe the police would move Nevil absolutely no reason to, if the Aga caused the burns then to me the tragedy kicked off much earlier maybe around 1.00am?

The wounds to Nevil are classic with attacks involving people with PS having a meltdown.

Quote from: Bill Robertson on November 07, 2023, 02:40:24 PMFor what it's worth, Sheila's predictive notes only referred to her killing the boys and herself. In fact, she refers to June as someone needing support from Christine, Sheila's natural mother. So I don't think that she set out to kill her parents but something happened to cause a confrontation between Sheila and June. I believe that she killed the boys first and intended ending her own life. It's possible that Nevill was only aware that Sheila had the rifle, not that she had fired it. I think that the comments about Sheila going berserk or crazy came about because Nevill heard the fight between Sheila and June. Sheila killed June and came downstairs to the kitchen where she confronted Nevill. What exactly happened then, I don't know but I do think that Nevill received all his injuries in the kitchen.

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 06, 2023, 10:04:09 PM

Quote from: Rob Garland on November 05, 2023, 10:22:46 PM

Quote from: Leslie Aalders on November 04, 2023, 11:59:36 PMThe thing is,if Nevill phoned the police at 3.25, was June and the boys dead by then?
If not,things must have moved fast before the police arrived.And why phone anyone if no one was injured at that point.? If they were dead,why didn't Nevill mention this to the police or JB?
Could they have been killed while Nevill was asleep down stairs? Surely not,wouldn't he have checked out what had happened when he woke up before phoning anyone?
And what about Nevill,was he uninjured when he made the calls to JB and the police?If so,we have to ask again,why was he phoning at all?
Now,Erik gave a scenario where things kick off in the kitchen between Nevill and Sheila, in which Nevill phones JB and Sheila runs up stairs and starts shooting.This is quite plausable,but there would have been no time for Nevill to call the police too before chasing after Sheila.
In all honesty,it is hard to come up with a scenario where Nevill gets a chance to call both JB and the police.
Yet,the CT claim that Nevill made a call to both JB and the police before being beaten and shot to death minutes later before falling against the Aga,then the police move Nevill to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
So when do the CT think Nevill was shot in the face and arm? Before the phone calls or after?
I simply cant work out a scenario that fits very well with Nevill calling the police then being moved by the TFG upon entry.
But I suppose, all that the CT need is proof of a call from Nevill,which they claim they have got.
So who knows,lets see what the CCRC conclude.

If there is proof of a call to the police from Nevil this virtually clears JB Leslie unless the prosecution claims the call was faked? Did the police hide the call out of honorable intentions?

It is difficult to fit the burns into a scenario if they take several hours to form, unless the police did actually move Nevil upon entry to the kitchen but why?

The only other option and to me the most likely is the altercation between Nevil and Sheila played out over a much longer time period, but if Nevil somehow ended up against the Aga for several hours I believe the call to JB has to be before any shots have been fired?

If the Aga is the cause of the burns to me this greatly helps JB, there is no way JB would be messing around for several hours he would just finish Nevil off where he lay.

There is quite a comprehensive discussion about Nevills phone call to the police in the official JB innocence campaign forum Rob.The CT claim that recordings of calls from both JB and Nevill to the police should still exist as copies were made and no record of their destruction has been found.They think the recordings may be held under PII.
The CT make quite a good argument about the two written logs as well Rob and firmly believe that Nevill phoned the police at 3.26 and JB phoned them at 3.36.
So,if we go by this,how do we fit a scenario around these times? What state was everyone in when Nevill called the police at 3.26?
 The thing is,the CT dont give a comprehensive scenario,so we dont know what had happened prior to Nevill calling the police at 3.26,only that he was consequently beaten and shot to death before falling against the Aga and there after moved to the chair/scuttle by the police.

So,what the CT need to make clear is,did all the victims die after Nevill pnoned the police or was June and the boys already dead? If so,why didn't Nevill mention this to JB or the police?
And as you say Rob,what reason did the police have for moving Nevill after entry.
You would think if Sheila didn't start shooting till after Nevill called the police,then he must have been the first to die before June and the boys were awake,otherwise everyone would have been running about the house and the boys could not have possibly died in their sleep.Nevill must have been despatched first before Sheila headed up stairs to attack an unsuspecting June and twins,who must have still been sleeping after Nevill was shot.
Trouble is,we are told Nevill was shot four times before ending up in the kitchen.
So Rob,obviously what we have to ask is,how did it all kick off and what made Nevill decide to call JB and the police,and more importantly,where was Sheila when he was making the calls? Just how can the CT explain this?
Or indeed how can any of us??
Well,if we are to go by the CT scenario, then it must have been obvious to Nevill that Sheila was having a psychotic episode and was very dangerous.But why not phone her doctors for help? Well,obviously Sheila must have been in possesion of the rifle and terrifying Nevill.

Could it have kicked off in Sheilas bedroom? Did Nevill find her there with the rifle? This would at least explain Nevill being shot from above in the arm and shoulder while running down stairs.But what about the face shots before reaching the kitchen? He couldn't make the calls could he? We're more or less back to the police scenario of Nevill being unable to make the calls.

It gets confusing.Maybe we should look at the wording of Nevills calls to JB and the police?
CRAZY and BERSERK! Now,both those words are quite powerful,you dont use them unless someone is completely out of control,especially BERSERK.So what was Sheila doing,or HAD done for Nevill to use those words?
Obviously she was carrying on like a lunatic when Nevill made the calls,but where was she? WHERE ON EARTH was Sheila when Nevill was on the phone?
He couldn't just leave her to run amok and attack June and the boys.
Did Nevill manage to shut Sheila in a room while he was on the phone? How else could he get any peace to make the calls?
Anyway Rob,if it did all kick off at 3.26 when Nevill phoned the police,Sheila didn't have much time to kill eveyone before the police arrived.
Oh well,that will do for now I suppose.